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Torper

Diesels in Scotland pre 1960

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I'm intrending to model a fictitious secondary through route in the old Caledonian Railway Northern Division in the BR period round about the end of the 1950s up to about 1960 or thereabouts.  Although I never thought I'd find myself saying this, I'd like to include some diesel traction (DCC sound is irresistable!) but am having some difficulty in finding what types would realistically have run on such a route at that time (and for which, ideally, there are RTR models available).  Unfportunately, such research as I've managed indicates that diesel traction came pretty late to that area and that the choice is very limited. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

DT

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Hi Torper,

 

            Firstly I'm not too sure of the extent of the Cally's Northern Division but would have to agree that you don't have a lot of choice for your time period. Classes might be 08, 20, the poor & much maligned 21s and possibly 101 DMUs. Classes 24/25 & 26/27 probably came along just too late for you.

 

             One loco you could use if you were very brave would be D5511, the Class 30 or 31 that was trialled in Scotland in the late 1950s. It was allocated to Inverness shed for a month or two in 1958 so might have made a trip down the Highland main line to Perth or Stirling if that helps. 

 

            Finally I have a photo of a Class 28 passing Stirling shed in (I think) the late 50s. I will check it out later when I get home and let you know.

 

 

Jim

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Wikepedia says this about the Class 26s

 

"Locomotive D5303 was on loan to the Scottish Region from 1958, being operated briefly from Inverness TMD, and Eastfield TMD before moving to Leith Central TMD. This was the precursor to a further twenty seven locomotives of a slightly modified design (D5320-5346, Class 26/1) being delivered to the Scottish Region between April and October 1959. The first two of these locomotives were briefly allocated to Leith Central, but subsequently all of the Scottish batch were based at Haymarket TMD (although some went to Hornsey on loan for a time).

 

By the middle of 1960, evaluation of the various Type 2 designs was complete and it was decided to concentrate all of the Class 26s in Scotland. As a result, the Class 26/0s were transferred to Haymarket, displacing the Class 26/1s to Inverness. Although some transferring of individual locomotives between the two depots occurred, the type was then allocated entirely to Haymarket and Inverness until 1987, apart from the brief allocation of a few locomotives to Kittybrewster TMD and Dundee TMD during 1960."

 

Usual reservations about reliability of information, but looks like there might be hope for the odd class 26 appearing on long distance trains through your area.

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Several of the different versions of Railbus worked in Scotland, were any of the available kit/rtr versions allocated to CR areas of Scotland?

On Flickr SC79973 is at Perth in May 1960.

 

cheers

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Another possibility is prototype diesels on trial runs. Not sure what happened at NBL, but other British manufacturers like Cravens and BRCW ran new locos and railcars on trials on BR metals - even ones for overseas use - even narrow gauge ones with standard gauge bogies. Only ones that would fit within the loading gauge though!

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NBL certainly ran test trains for new/repaired locos over the GSWR main line to Dumfries, I've seen a couple of shots of Class 22 Hydraulics there. They also ran some foreign locos, the most unusual ones that I'm aware of being a pair of 0-6-0s built for Mauritius that were tested between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh.

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In 1959, the Metropolitan Vickers Type 2's (Co-Bos) being used on the 'Condor' were sometimes used by Polmadie on internal Scottish services during their layover in Glasgow. From the 'derbysulzers' website, during the week they sometimes worked passenger services on the Gourock (and Wemyss Bay) lines. They could also be used on a Bridgeton - Stirling freight, returning with a coal train from Plean to Shieldhall. Those laying over on the weekend sometimes took the Friday 10.20pm sleeper to Carlisle and 7.15am return, or worked the Saturday 5.30pm St Enoch - Carlisle.

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Following on from Peter's comments above, I was right about a Class 28 at Stirling. It was D5713 going south past Stirling shed

on a passenger turn for Glasgow. The stock was 6/7 Staniers and the loco was in plain green, displaying express headcodes.

 

The photo is in Diesel Days - Scotland by Brian J Dickson

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Thanks everyone for your help on this.  Sadly, you've all basically confirmed what i'd feared - if I want a diesel doing regular workings on my line in about 1960, it's got to be a class 21 and Dapol, unfortunately, appear to dragging their heels a bit on the promised production of a model of this loco.  (The CR Northern Division, incidentally, started at Greenhill, near Falkirk - I hope to model a small through station on a fictitious but plausible line somewhere between Perth and Aberdeen).  Back in 1960 I wasn't really paying an awful lot of attention to trains, but I can remember Class 21s working (or not!) on the Strathmore line.  My proposed station won't be big enough to warrant an 08, and i don't think that Class 20s ever got up here, or if they did it must have been very rare.  I'm very tempted, though, by a Class 28 as i really like them - i've even got one of the old Hornby Dublo ones somewhere.  However, although you can justify quite a lot on a fictitious line, I really don't think I could justify one of them (even to myself) for regular workings..

 

I did think of expanding my time slot up to, say, 1965, but I don't think that would help me much other than that I might be able to run a class 105 DMU.  The same could possibly apply to a first generation railbus, a dozen or so of which worked in Scotland from about 1958, but I hate them and just couldn't bring myself to model one!

 

DT

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Remember Rule No.1 in all this, and don't fret too much over it; after all it's meant to be enjoyable, and if you want a diesel or two, nobody here is going to criticise you for it :no:

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My proposed station won't be big enough to warrant an 08

What about an 06? D2410-D2444 were built for ScR from 1958.

 

Cheers

David

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What about an 06? D2410-D2444 were built for ScR from 1958.

Hmmm.... for which there happens to be a Judith Edge kit (and a rather basic Hornby model, described in Model railway Express as "not a scale model").  I've always fancied trying one of the Judith Edge kits.  :good:

 

And Ben Alder, I do appreciate what you say.  The trouble is that my greatest critic is myself.  Having said that, an LNER E4 is going to be seen from time to time, so if that can put in an appearance........ :scratchhead:

 

DT

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Hi DT,

 

Sorry that this may be a bit late in the day but is the following worth looking at?

 

Google brdatabase.info

 - down the left hand side of the homepage is a search box - enter in the name of a scottish depot (e.g. Haymarket)

 - when it brings up the possible results, click on the relevant one (the above search would also bring up a couple of locos)

 - when that page resolves, you'll see a range of tabs one of which is entitled 'snapshot'; click on it

 - what you'll then see are two drop-down menus - pick the year and month that seems to fit what you're looking for and off you go.

 

This may only confirm what others have said, although it may throw up one or two surprises too.

 

Hope it's of help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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Class 20s were based at Inverness, Kittybrewster and Leith from early 1960, with class 24s following soon after. There was also the NBL 0-4-0 shunters which appeared from 1958 at places like Dundee, Stirling and Dunfermline. Again these are available from Judith Edge. Actually I should get round to making one of these.....

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A quote from the January 1959 Railway Magazine:

 

"River Tay also reports that main-line diesel locomotives continue to run trials in the Scottish Region.  No D5303, of 1,160 hp, has been working between Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and also has been noticed on passenger trains on the main line to Perth via Glenfarg.  No. D8006, of 1,000 hp, has worked the 3.35 p.m. freight train from Dundee West to Carlisle Canal."

 

 

and from Trains Illustrated March 1959:

 

"The latest diesel to be loaned to Scotland for trials is a BTH Type 1, No D8208, which arrived at Polmadie on January 9 and three days later set off for the north on a freight for a period of trial from Kittybrewster; it was seen in the place of the usual Haymarket Pacific on the 12.20 am Heaton freight from Aberdeen on January 24."

 

 

Trains Illustrated April 1959:

 

"The BTH 800 hp diesel electric locomotive on loan to the Scottish Region, No D8208, was transferred from Kittybrewster to Thornton at the end of January."

 

 

Trains Illustrated November 1959:

 

"Diesel working of the Birmingham / Sulzer Type 2 units on Edinburgh – Aberdeen passenger trains began on August 31.  Two duties observed have been the 5.58 am Edinburgh – Dundee and 9.43 am back, worked by a single unit, and the 7.30 am Edinburgh – Aberdeen and 5.17 pm back, dealt with by two units in multiple."

 

 

Trains Illustrated December 1959:

 

"With the commencement of the winter services on November 2, two more Edinburgh – Aberdeen services were booked for working by a pair of Birmingham RC&W Type 2 diesel units; the trains concerned are the 10 am from Edinburgh and the 2.15 back from Aberdeen.  There is also a twin unit freight working on the 6pm Niddrie – Craiginches.  All the units of this type recently loaned to Hornsey have returned to Scotland."

 

 

 

Not sure if it was the 1950s but the Metro Vicks were used to work the overnight Condor service between London and Glasgow.  During the day they would be borrowed by Polmadie to work mineral empties from nearby locations such as Shawfield, Clyde's Mill or Clyde Iron Works to Oakley in Fife and return with loaded coal trains.  Might have been early 1960s. These trains travelled via Larbert to Alloa so would have passed Greenhill Lower Junction en route to Larbert and Oakley.  This might have been early 1960s.

 

 

 

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There was a Brush type loaned to the ScR from Stratford in the late 50s, I think it was D5512 but without trawlling through my books I cannot be 100% of its number.

Edited by Clive Mortimore

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It was D5511 Clive which was allocated to Inverness shed for a couple of months in 1958. Photos of it at work in Scotland are rarer than hen's teeth, does anyone know of any?

 

Jim

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I think one was published in the Highland Railway Journal some time back- I'll try and track it down....

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I am fairly sure I have seen a photo of the Brush at Fort William - but can't remember where. Quite possibly Trains Illustrated Magazine around the time the loco was in Scotland.

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I've seen a photo of D5511 at Fort William and one at Hawick, heading a passenger train southwards. It was definitely reported as having at least one run on the Callander & Oban too.

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Getting back to the start of the thread, by extending the operating period to early the 1960's the main options I would look at are;

 

Class 17 (Clayton centre-cabs) - from around 1962. allocated to Eastfield (Glasgow) and Haymarket (Edinburgh). Worked out of Thornton, often on drag freights.

Class 20 - Early allocation to Inverness and Kittybrewster (4 each). I have a photo of D8006 in October 1958 on the Buchan lines. D8028/9/31 & 32 all 60A (Kittybrewster)

Class 21 - Ignominiously dumped in Scotland after an appalling start to their careers. By 1960 all were based in either Eastfield or Kittybrewster. Used on both freight and passenger (often with a steam engine shoving them!).

Class 24/0 (no head code box [simplistic definition I know]) - from 1959, relatively small numbers, but I would count these in as they did wander about.

Class 24/1 (headcode box) - these were a mainstay of Inverness shed. 

Class 26 - end 1959 from Hornsey. These would be a mainstay. Interchangeable with the the class 24's and very common.

Class 27 - 1961/2 starting to make a show although less common in the east initially

Class 29 - rebuilt class 21's (still didn't go very well) Conversion started in 1963. 4 Character headbox replaced disc's plus other details.

Class 40 - 1960 7 allocated to 64B Haymarket and a further 12 in 1961. Not beyond Aberdeen

Class 47 - from 1963 onwards. Not beyond Aberdeen

 

John

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Getting back to the start of the thread, by extending the operating period to early the 1960's the main options I would look at are;
 
Class 17 (Clayton centre-cabs) - from around 1962. allocated to Eastfield (Glasgow) and Haymarket (Edinburgh). Worked out of Thornton, often on drag freights.

 

John, Eastfield, at least initially, was spared the Claytons. D8500-D8553 were inflicted on Polmadie before Haymarket got its first one.

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I've seen a photo of D5511 at Fort William and one at Hawick, heading a passenger train southwards. It was definitely reported as having at least one run on the Callander & Oban too.

 

Its northwards working was recorded here, entering Hawick:

http://railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=24644

 

...and here sat at the platform:

http://railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29078

 

The date was 26th July 1958.  And fortunately none of the type ever blighted the route again.  :jester:

 

Allegedly, on its southbound run, it restarted on the 1:75 climb to Falahill and on arrival at Gala it is said you could have fried an egg on its bodyside panels!

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"Not sure if it was the 1950s but the Metro Vicks were used to work the overnight Condor service between London and Glasgow."

 

In  (I  think)  the  summer  of  1959,  while  spotting  the  WD  2-8-0's  on  the  General  Terminus  ore  trains  at  Langside  Junction,  I  spotted  ex  LMS  10001  in  black  and  silver  on  the  up  Condor  freight.  No  camera,  unfortunately,  and  I  didn't  take  a  lot  of  interest  in  diesels  then;  but  I  recognised  that  one!

 

Allan  F

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Class 17 (Clayton centre-cabs) - These were widely used on main line Class 4 fitted freights in pairs over the Waverley route and Glenfarg lines from Millerhill, possibly others.  The practice seems to have ceased around 1966 when there was a large influx of diesels from other regions with the express intention of eliminating steam.  A lot of them came to Dunfermline and Thornton Junction for use on trip workings.

 

Class 24/0 (no head code box) - I am not sure about these.  Some LMR examples worked the Condor in 1961 and were used by Polmadie on Fife coal traffic in the same vein as the Metro Vicks referred to in a previous entry but I don’t think any were allocated to the ScR until 1966 as part of the influx referred to above.

 

Class 26 & 27 - One of my bugbears is the portrayal of 26/27s in the media.  They initially operated in three quite distinct areas:

 

Initially the Pilot scheme 26s, 26/0, were allocated to Haymarket (Leith Central?) and used in pairs on the Edinburgh – Aberdeen service from April/May 1960.  Some Production 26s, 26/1, were also involved at the start but as more Pilot Scheme 26s arrived from Hornsey, eventually the production series 26s found their way to their intended home of Inverness.

 

In the meantime the Pilot scheme locos, by now all allocated to Haymarket, were partially displaced from the Aberdeen road by the arrival of Class 40s to other lines from 1962 such as the  Waverley Route, Edinburgh – Perth via Glenfarg, Edinburgh – Stirling via Dunfermline and some Edinburgh – Glasgow workings.

 

The Production 26s were allocated to Inverness along with the headcode box 24s.  As far as I am aware all had tablet exchange apparatus and were widely used north of Perth on all of the ex Highland lines.  I seem to recall that steam was eliminated from the ex Highland lines in 1960.  From 1962 they started also to work into Edinburgh from Perth over the Glenfarg line.  They worked to Glasgow Buchanan Street from Perth, but this may have been from the outset.

 

In the meantime only a small number of 27s, D5347-69 were new to Scotland, all based at Eastfield and working primarily the West Highland line from Queen Street and Callander & Oban lines from Buchanan Street via Stirling and Dunblane.  There were some diagrams to Edinburgh and Haymarket similarly had some Pilot scheme 26 diagrams to Glasgow.  The remaining 27s were all delivered to the NER at Thornaby or on the Midland Division of the LMR.  In the mid to late 1960s they transferred to Scotland and were converted for use on the Edinburgh – Glasgow push pull services.  I don’t think that any of the original Scottish allocation was involved in these services.

 

As regards the original Scottish 27 allocation, I remember reading somewhere that Perth men had not been trained on them so they would not have been seen anywhere north of Perth for several years, although I know they were used between Buchanan Street and Dundee West.  I have read that 27s didn’t reach Inverness until 1980 when displaced from the Edinburgh – Glasgow services by the 47/7s, they in turn replaced the Swindon 3 car units on the Aberdeen – Inverness service.

 

It always amuses me to see West Highland layouts featuring 26s and Highland layouts featuring green 27s.  Generally speaking, it just didn’t happen.

 

Class 29 - rebuilt class 21's – Contrary to popular belief, the rebuilds went well enough to enable the withdrawal of the last A4s in 1966 and were considered reliable enough to be let loose on the West Highland line but ultimately they were wiped out in the mass elimination of non standard classes around 1970.  Perhaps the most fitting tribute to the 21s is that, had they been successful, I can think of at least four A4s that might not have made it into preservation!

 

As regards the adventures of D5511, many years ago I recall a friend showing me a picture of a Peppercorn A1 in Princes Street Gardens.  He asked me what was unusual about the photograph.  I had no idea until he pointed out D5511 in the distance approaching from the Haymarket direction.  There was no mention of it in the caption!

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