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GWR four-plank wagon from Coopercraft kit + GWR one-plank wagons


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  • RMweb Gold

Hello everyone,

 

I'm currently modifying a Coopercraft GWR 4-plank wagon to represent one of the many standard gauge versions built from 1888-1902. I would like it to run with grease axleboxes, one-sided lever brake and in the 1890s livery (ie pre- cast plates).

 

However the Coopercraft instructions state that the kit is for a 4-plank wagon "built 1902". This seems to suggest that the kit is not suitable for modelling earlier types. But when looking at photos in the Atkins, Beard and Tourret bible, the only significant differences I can see between the 1902 O5 diagrams and the earlier 4-plank types are the axle boxes and brakes.

 

Am I missing something, or were axle boxes and brake indeed the only main difference?

Edited by Mikkel
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Hi Mikkel,

 

The diagram index only began in 1905 and, for some reason, only the single lot (L374) of four plank wagons with DCI brakes built in 1902 were included. This was only 200 wagons, but there were many thousands of otherwise identical types in existence at the time, mostly with single sided lever brakes. Later, in 1927, over eighteen thousand of these were given diagram O21 when they received an extra lever on the other side. Even the earlier wooden solebar types have pretty much the same body.

 

The change to oil boxes on these appears to have started in the mid-1890s, although the GWR had started using them on some wagons around 1888. Apart from the couple of pictures in Atkins et al., there are many photos of the four plankers in Russell's Appendix and Wagon Loads books, although his captions are a little confusing as he labels most as O5, and one as O21 when all are, strictly, pre-diagram.

 

Nick

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks very much Nick, this is excellent. Both the info and the facts. I was worried that I had missed some crucial difference (other than those mentioned) between the O5s and earlier 4-plankers.

 

Am having lots of fun with the red livery btw :-)

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  • RMweb Gold

So here's how far I got today. Nothing fancy, and I know Coopercraft kits aren't to everyone's taste - but they're fine for me. The wheels are just spares while I wait for an order.

 

post-738-0-62345500-1373401080_thumb.jpg

 

I've just now realized that Dave has done a similar version in 7mm (so much for Google!). Lovely stuff: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1131/entry-9802-a-pair-of-early-livery-opens/

 

Mine will have the post-1894 right hand GWR.  

 

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  • RMweb Gold

 MJT does good grease boxes.

 

Thanks Miss P, I will order some for future projects. The one above just uses leftover David Geen parts, which is a bit crude compared to those nice parts on the Dart/MJT site.

 

That V-hanger on my 4-planker looks a bit short, by the way...

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...That V-hanger on my 4-planker looks a bit short, by the way...

Yes, I noticed that and have just taken the calipers to one of the O4 kits that's sitting on my bench. I think the solebars are the same as the O5. Assuming the V-hanger should be the same as with the Thomas and DCI brakes, the drawings in Atkins et al. show the centre of the spindle to be 151/2" below the bottom of the solebar. The centres of the bolts holding the hanger on the solebar are 141/2" apart. Measuring those in the kit show them to be both shorter and wider than these dimensions.

 

btw there should be a single bar vertical hanger behind the solebar to support the other end of the spindle. I don't think it's included in the kit.

 

Nick

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Hi Mikkel,

 

Have you looked inside your four-planker and, if so, have you noticed anything odd about it? Inspired by your topic, I thought I'd dig out one I made a few years ago and the couple of unbuilt kits in my stash. Here's the one I made earlier:

 

post-6746-0-53641100-1373656661.jpg

 

This is assembled as intended but with added DCI brake gear and buffers (ABS, I think). Apart from the poor painting and spurious white paint on the brake handle, can you see what's wrong? It may look like a four-plank wagon on the outside, but inside it shows only three planks :O

 

The source of the problem is twofold. Firstly, the top of the solebars is extended upwards by by nearly 2mm and there are a couple of pips on the inside of the ends on which the floor is intended to rest. The effect is to raise the floor to the top of the first plank:

 

post-6746-0-54781200-1373656662.jpg

 

It looks like this wagon will have to be filled with a load to hide this oddity. However, I think I have a solution to try on the two kits. More later if it works...

 

Nick

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Nick, very nice illustration of the problem. I had seen this commented on over on the GWR e-list also, so was aware of it - but decided to solve it by loading the wagons. It won't be with barrels though, as they will be too high!

 

I've got three of these underway, two have already been built and painted - but the last has not. It would be nice to have that last one in empty condition, so I would be very interested to see how you solve it. Thanks for bringing this up.

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  • RMweb Gold

Off-topic PS:

 

Been looking at options for kit-bashing to get some pre-diagram GWR 1- and 2-plankers (some nice kits available from WEP in 7mm, but nothing in 4mm).

 

I thought I had a candidate in the Cambrian Models 1-plank stone wagon, but it is a little too short. Now looking into whether the new Cambrian Rwys 2-plank dropside from the same manufacturer is an option for modification.

Edited by Mikkel
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Been looking at options for kit-bashing to get some pre-diagram GWR 1- and 2-plankers (some nice kits available from WEP in 7mm, but nothing in 4mm)...

 

I'll be interested to hear if you find anything suitable, Mikkel. I know that David Geen does several varieties of three-plank wagons, and perhaps something similar could be done with some careful cutting of the Cooper Craft four-plank. Most one and two-plank GWR wagons were, I think, on wooden underframes, so might require some scratch building if a suitable chassis cannot be found.

 

Cutting the extra 2mm off and gluing the floor in the correct place does the job rather well

Though typically I only noticed this after building the first few as per the instructions which now all need loads

Funny how we only spot it after the event, Rich. Yes, I agree that quite a good job can be done by trimming the lump off the top of the solebars, but you can only remove about 1.5mm here without eating into the solebar itself. However, this might be enough as several parts not are quite to scale. The planks are only a fraction over six inches where they should be seven and the curb rail is also a little on the small size for early wagons. To go with that, the floor is a little too thick and the solebars are an inch or more too deep.

 

Here's what I did today with my two wagons. First, I lightly glued the pairs of solebars back to back then held them in a vice with some soft carboard. The ordinary box material with a corrugated inner layer is ideal. I then milled 1.5mm off the upper thick part leaving only a representation of the upper angle part of the bars, then separated them with a scalpel. The same could be achieved easily with a good file. On one wagon, this was the only change but, for the second, I then took 0.5mm off the floor where the solebars would be joined to it. This photo shows the trimmed solebars and the underside of the floor with 0.5mm removed at the edges:

 

post-6746-0-41316100-1373744281.jpg

 

The floor above is just for illustration if you were to build the underframe as intended. In my case, I removed all the ribbing under the floor so that I could fit Bill Bedford sprung W-irons. The next photo shows one trimmed and one untouched solebar together with the underside of the cleaned-up floor. Also removed, but not shown here, was everything below the solebars, except for the bump stops:

 

post-6746-0-87699500-1373744622.jpg

 

So what difference did the extra 0.5mm make? The next photo shows the kit as intended on the right, the one with 1.5mm removed from the solebars in the middle, and the one with the extra 0.5mm removed from the floor on the left:

 

post-6746-0-12304300-1373744513.jpg

 

Both look much deeper than the original and you have to look quite closely to realise that one has a bit less than the full four planks showing. Up to a point, I think the difference is only apparent once you know it's there, so maybe the extra bit off the floor is not essential.

 

Finally, here are all three from the side. The main purpose here is to show off the rather nice MJT castings that Russ mentioned earlier:

 

post-6746-0-12773900-1373744514.jpg

 

It's strange that this odd form of solebar mouldings is common to all of the Cooper Craft O diagram types, yet the Q1 provender wagon, effectively a ten plank open, has a much more normal approach and all ten planks are visible on the inside :scratchhead:

 

Nick

Edited by buffalo
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Off-topic PS:

 

Been looking at options for kit-bashing to get some pre-diagram GWR 1- and 2-plankers (some nice kits available from WEP in 7mm, but nothing in 4mm).

 

I thought I had a candidate in the Cambrian Models 1-plank stone wagon, but it is a little too short. Now looking into whether the new Cambrian Rwys 2-plank dropside from the same manufacturer is an option for modification.

 

Don't forget that the 3-plank wagons were only 15' 6" long...

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  • RMweb Gold

 Here's what I did today with my two wagons.

 

What an excellent post, Nick! The difference really is quite visible. I'll certainly be trimming my next 4-planker as you describe.

 

 

Don't forget that the 3-plank wagons were only 15' 6" long...

 

Yes, that's the thing. Many of the 1-plankers were also of that length, so I'm looking for kits with similar dimensions (and 9ft wb) to convert into a 1-planker. There is also a drawing in Atkins etc al of an 18 ft 10ft wb one-planker, btw.

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post-1971-0-37530300-1373800562.jpg

Here is one of my earlier efforts with the Coopercraft kit (it's compensated rather than sprung) but it probably illustrates most of the points Nick was making. Quite a few modifications: brake lever and ratchet, squared off ends to the headstocks, bolt heads inside the wagon body, top of solebar moulding sawn off to give full depth inside, support post for the V-hanger (I confess I don't know the proper name for this but it is often quite visible), metal buffers (natch), new label clip at the LH end of the solebar, and of course the MJT grease 'box castings. Underneath there is a much lead as I could cram in!

 

I have 4 or 5 of these in 'service' – actually mostly sitting on a shelf gathering dust – along with various 1- 2- and 3-plank wagons, one of the latter being from a Geen kit, the rest scratchbuilt. My main problem is that most of them are in earlier livery and should probably be painted red rather than grey; in this case life really is too short, though I will repaint my 7mm scale versions. Eventually.

Edited by wagonman
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post-1971-0-22971400-1373807988_thumb.jpg

 

 

A few more. Front row 1- 2- and 3-plank opens (all scratchbuilt) with more Coopercraft kits behind. Top left is an O5 as intended with DC1 brakes, angled ends to the headstocks, oil 'boxes (and no couplings – oops). Etched brake levers move so brakes can appear to be 'on'...

 

 

 

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  • RMweb Gold

This is wonderful stuff Richard! Not least the one- and two-plankers. Going a bit off-topic here, but is the one-planker that you built 15' 6 over headstocks and 9ft wheelbase? I don't have a drawing of these (other than this sketch) so want to be sure I've got the basics right.

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re the WEP single plank wagon, I'm not sure which edition of Atkins et al. you have, Mikkel, but there's a photo of that very wagon (No 5141) on p53 of the 1986 combined edition. However, it is from the non-brake side and the caption suggests only a single brake block. The lettering is a little different as well.

 

Nick

 

edit: and another photo of the same wagon, this time side on and again from the non-brake side but confirming the single block in BGS Broadsheet no 46. An enlargement of the left hand end of the solebar shows the latest painting dates to be 17/11/94 and 18/1/97

Edited by buffalo
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This is wonderful stuff Richard! Not least the one- and two-plankers. Going a bit off-topic here, but is the one-planker that you built 15' 6 over headstocks and 9ft wheelbase? I don't have a drawing of these (other than this sketch) so want to be sure I've got the basics right.

Yes it is 15' 6" OH and a 9' wheelbase, though mine has a single wooden brake block and was built from a photo in one of the wagon books (Atkins/Beard/Hyde/Tourret Vol 1 page 53). The actual wagon was condemned on 22 October 1908 at Bridgwater so just fits into my c1906 time frame. In scratchbuilding terms it is as straightforward as it gets – the only odd things about it are the 4-rib buffers and the older form of grease 'box. The coupling chain is fitted shackle style rather than gedged into the hook but in 4mm one can probably ignore that [/heresy]

 

Forgot to add that the 1 and 2 plank wagons had wooden underframes while the 3plank have bulb iron like contemporary minks.

Edited by wagonman
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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks very much Nick and Richard.

 

I have the 98 combined volume of Atkins et al, which as Nick says has a photo of one-plank 5141 but also another of 4373 (both with single wooden brake block). But I am confused by the text which first states that:

 

"the standard one-plank wagon was 15ft 6in long, 7ft 5in wide and 11in high..." 

 

It then says that around 1917 there were 2300 one-plankers in service with 11 in planks, namely:

 

"180 of 15ft 0in length by 7ft 5in width internal dimensions, 950 of 15ft 6in by 7ft 5in, 985 of 17ft 6in by 7ft 3in (as per drawing) and 185  varying from 18ft 0 in to 18ft 6in length and 7ft 3 in width."

 

From the way the text is written, we must assume that all the dimensions in the last quote are internal dimensions (which also fits the drawing referred to). But then which one is the standard 15ft 6 in long one referred to first - and which is also what Richard has modelled? I think the authors must be mixing up internal and external dimensions here...?

Edited by Mikkel
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I also have the Combined volume! Wagon 4373 is clearly 18' OH – the GWR always seemed to use the Over Headstocks measurement at least when defining which of its standard underframes was being used with 15' 6" giving way to 16' and that in turn giving way to 17' 6" in the 1920s. That they had single plank wagons of a variety of lengths is a little surprising as it is difficult to discern any traffic requirement for such wagons. It could of course be that some are conversions from BG stock – I've not seen the relevant Lot books so cannot say for certain.

 

I presume that wagon 5141 was one of the 950 'standard' 15' 6" x 7' 5" wagons (or rather would have been if it hadn't been scrapped by 1917) and that the dimensions are external – I would agree with you that the authors seem to be slightly confused about internal/external measurements. GWR wagon construction of the 1860s and 1870s seems to be an area we know too little about...

Edited by wagonman
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  • RMweb Gold

Ok, so we can assume that the 15'6 dimension for the 950 is over headstocks.

 

But I think I'll see what can be done about building one of the 18 ft (o.h.) types instead, it seems safer for me as there is a drawing and two pictures. As you say Richard it does seem a fairly simple scratchbuilding job. Maybe a good one for me to practice on.

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Thanks to Nick we have established that 5141 was in fact an 18' long wagon (at least) so bear that in mind when anyone starts to build it! Or, in my case, rebuild it. On the really nit-picky level, notice too that it has 9-leaf springs in stead of the later 4 or 5. No. 4373 additionally has quite thick spacing pads between the headstock and the 4-rib buffer housing which seems to be absent, or at least minimal, on 5141.

 

As to width, I find it hard to believe that 7' 5" for the width was internal – wagons weren't built that wide until the 1920s.

Edited by wagonman
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  • RMweb Gold

Richard, can you not keep your current 5141 and renumber it to one of the 950 standard wagons that had the 15' 6" x 7' 5" dimensions? Or maybe you only want wagons that there are photos of?

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