Hornby Hobbies Ltd ? 2013 Product Delays and Modelzone Announcement

[oOld Harry 666]

It doesn't prove anything. You've already said the one importer whose production is 'in-group' doesn't meet your expectation.

 

 

Actually  it is just that the UK market is such a small part of their overall business it has to struggle for it's production slots - a quote direct from the horses mouth at the very top of Bachmann UK.

 

As a GM of a large company I dabbled with outsourcing in certain areas, however I soon discovered that there is no substitute for you directly controlling your own workforce and plant and the promised savings by contracting out are, in reality, fools gold.

[MarkSG]

 

As a GM of a large company I dabbled with outsourcing in certain areas, however I soon discovered that there is no substitute for you directly controlling your own workforce and plant and the promised savings by contracting out are, in reality, fools gold.

 

You may have discovered that in your own industry, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate to all the others. As a counter-example, the company I work for has found that using Chinese suppliers has been an excellent move.

 

In Hornby's case, the reality is that without outsourcing the company would probably have folded back at the end of the 90s. The fact that outsourcing has brought with it an entirely different set of problems is only to be expected, but that doesn't invalidate the original decision.

[jonathan452]

There was a 90 and an 87 announced last year which haven't appeared. Are they still delayed, or have they been abandoned altogether now?

Thanks

I believe they have both been abandoned altogether.

 

On a separate note regarding the continuing delay to the ex Virgin weathered Mk3's (also a 2012 release).

 

Surely Hornby should now take the oppurtuntity to review these by not releasing a one off HST TGS when the other variants I believe are 1XXXX loco hauled versions.

 

As the former will end up on the poor retailers shelves for ever more.

 

Hopefully the new management may now start looking at this and other similar inconsistencies.

[robmcg]

Good to see transparency and good intentions, sad too about production problems.

 

When one considers how things were in the 80s and earlier, in terms of quality of models and sheer number of products, well, we have had it very good over the last few years, and I will appreciate such as I can any new models!  I am still amazed by the standard of, say, a weathered B17, incredible for the price.

 

edit; I would like to add that the Chinese 'move' was great, and the standard acheived with the Merchant Navy was ground-breaking and stills stand up very well in today's market .

 

Thankyou Hornby for being 'up front' and all the best. Photos below are of course somewhat photo-edited by me but are supreme examples of production modelling.

 

 

[andyman7]

The transparency is useful, and I have to say that I have been spurred into buying a couple of 2012 releases at pretty much full RRP because a) it is clear that they are nearly sold out, with stock having gone from box-shifters some time ago, and b) unlikely to be followed soon by alternative issues. Its possible therefore that the delays may help ensure stocks of items are run down ensuring that new production is ordered promptly and doesn't hang around.

[doublecee]

I posted a rather long comment on their Facebook about this. Its a bit of a read, but I think what's needed is for the naysayers to take a step back for a moment and look at what's really happening. Yes, its a bit of a disappointment, given the quality of the 2013 announcements and the arrival of the 2-Bil, but they (Hornby) are all over this and looking at options. Surely that's a given...?

 

It goes without saying that the only way forward is with overseas production. Rightly or wrongly, depending on your stance (of course). But lets be realistic, many of the negative comments on facebook somehow mention bringing the work back to the uk. Well, you only have to look at any of the early to late 90's catalogues to see why that would be a very bad idea, because if it were to happen, you would have to pay current RRP prices for the main stock for something thats only ever going to reach railroad quality. And please, dont get me wrong, Railroad is a very viable product indeed... but if your now staffing the old factory floor in Margate (currently used for online distribution, archives and... well that's about it actually if you don't include the HVC), you will find yourself paying minimum wage. So either the prices go up or the quality dips. 

 

Its a bit of a ######, but I cant see this as creating a shift in the market from red box to blue. They too are having the same issues as Margate (or at least so Im told).

 

I was very keen on the P2, and a wait isnt going to diminish my enthusiasm. Hornby is a brand that has been in my life for as long as I care to remember. Granted, I took a 29 year break, from the age of 14 to 43... but its a strong, reliable and very consistent brand, and I am sure that this will all improve in time.

 

Its nice to see so many positive comments here on rmweb... I think Hornby's Facebook page attracts a younger and slightly more "opinionated" participant, as evident by some of their less enthusiastic comments.

[valeofyork]

 

On a separate note regarding the continuing delay to the ex Virgin weathered Mk3's (also a 2012 release).

 

Surely Hornby should now take the oppurtuntity to review these by not releasing a one off HST TGS when the other variants I believe are 1XXXX loco hauled versions.

 

The only Mk3 brake coaches were the three BFOs, which were transferred to FGW pretty much as soon as Virgin finished with them so aren't really suitable for inclusion in what appears to be intended as a charter rake. Plus Hornby don't have the tooling to make them accurately - they don't look the same as a TGS (which incidentally isn't a brake coach! The power cars in an HST are the brake vehicles).

 

The most logical brake coach to use would be a Mk2 BSO as that's what is most likely to have run with debranded Mk3s in a charter rake. Otherwise, a debranded DVT would be an option.

[County of Yorkshire]

The transparency is useful, and I have to say that I have been spurred into buying a couple of 2012 releases at pretty much full RRP because a) it is clear that they are nearly sold out, with stock having gone from box-shifters some time ago, and B) unlikely to be followed soon by alternative issues. Its possible therefore that the delays may help ensure stocks of items are run down ensuring that new production is ordered promptly and doesn't hang around.

 

I was going to sit tight and wait for a Hawksworth liveried (G-W-R) 42xx tank but now that you mention it, you're better off snapping up what you can get now. In light of today's announcement, you're probably going to have to wait around 18 months for a re-liveried re-issue. 

[robmcg]

Indeed I think our appetite for new models of high quality is undiminshed, and I see quite healthy prices being realised on Ebay for popular used models. £210 the other day for a maker's grey Bulleid light pacific 21C165 'Fighter Pilot'.

 

The main thing is that Hornby appear to be being managed well through trying circumstances.

 

For what it's worth, you can buy second-hand on Ebay Hornby models that simply knock the socks off anything available 15 years ago. Weathered new version 28XX about 80 quid to you guv. And weathered or pristine Scots and Arthurs, can't give 'em away.

 

Like doublecee a couple of messages above, Hornby is a life-long thing to me, and I too was away from the hobby for 35-or-so years.

 

Rob

[7013]

Very disappointing but good that Hornby are being up front. Whilst it probably is not viable to move production back to the UK I cannot agree with doublecee about quality. If there was a move back here (and I for one would be more than happy to pay higher prices for this) there is no proof that quality would drop. I suspect output would drop and we would see a smaller more expensive and better quality controlled range which I believe would be better for Hornby in the short/medium term. 

I am a great supporter of Hornby but cannot help thinking that unless they get their supply/manufacturing problems sorted out sooner rather than later it will impact on sales of all models. With the well publicised perceived or otherwise problems with the 42\72xx locos and delays to locos like the Hall and P2 confidence will inevitably be affected in some quarters. 

For me it is not a problem because none of the locos  are in my purchasing list except the Hall which I can get from Bachmann anyway, and that point is salient because Bachmann have had to temporarily withdraw both of their versions of the Hall which could have potentially let Hornby in. Now Bachmann have breathing space and it is Hornby who will probably loose out, it is such a shame that those who have waited patiently for the B17 now see versions being postponed less than a year after its introduction.

These are volatile times for Hornby and I believe we have not heard the last of these delays/problems or indeed felt the full repercussions.

[oOld Harry 666]

You may have discovered that in your own industry, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate to all the others. As a counter-example, the company I work for has found that using Chinese suppliers has been an excellent move.

 

In Hornby's case, the reality is that without outsourcing the company would probably have folded back at the end of the 90s. The fact that outsourcing has brought with it an entirely different set of problems is only to be expected, but that doesn't invalidate the original decision.

 

 

Moving production to China in itself is not a problem, what, in my opinion, any company in this position should do is takes steps to control the supply line. This could be in the form of buying of taking a majority shareholding in the supplier, or indeed setting up your own production facility.

[Guest maxthemapman]

Just for the record, I collect Berlin S-Bahn sets. I purchased a number of Lima versions from retailers who imported the overseas range, and paid reasonable prices for them. Presumably, these were made in Italy. Perfectly good quality.

 

So, when Hornby take over, production moves to China, they are rebranded as Rivarossi, the supply vanishes, and the retail price doubles (for a unit that is already fully researched and tooled). Now, it is nice that the infamous Lima kit of parts now comes installed, and obviously manufacturing in Italy wasn't sufficiently profitable because Lime went bust, but there are enough variables at work here for me to have a "hang on a minute" moment.

 

An Italian once told me that Italians don't work very much, but when they do they are the most productive workforce in Europe.

[Mike Bellamy]

Mention was made earlier about the situation with Bachmann and their parent company Kader. They also have problems from time to time such as the On30 Heisler loco that was due at the end of 2011 and when the container load was delivered to the States, the whole consignment was rejected and returned to China for replacement or repair (I believe it was a problem with the motor and/or gears). As a result they were over 12 months late getting onto the shelves and only appeared earlier this year.

 

On a related issue about announcing models well in advance, again using Bachmann On30 as an example, the two car railbus was photographed and on sale in Japan before Bachmann USA had even announced it - in fact at one point 'The Bachmann' who runs their forum denied that it was one of their models until shown photos of the box and the name underneath - even some of the local staff didn't know it was coming!!

[Metr0Land]

 

 

An Italian once told me that Italians don't work very much, but when they do they are the most productive workforce in Europe.

 

Sounds like their football team - one of the best games ever was when they were reduced to 10 men after just a few mins in a world cup match

[Horsetan]

....An Italian once told me that Italians don't work very much, but when they do they are the most productive workforce in Europe.

 

"Carlsberg don't make Italians, but if they did....."

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...there are enough variables at work here for me to have a "hang on a minute" moment...

It's very simple in essence. A privately or sympathetically owned business in particular (not overly beholden to shareholders / investors) that has a fine product range and a workforce expert in the technology working like fury to advance the state of their art every day, can be competitive in Europe and other high wage economies, provided the added value ratio from input to output is above a critical floor level. That dedicated workforce has to be paid a competitive wage. The heartland of this method in Europe is of course Germany. But it happens all over Europe, and very good it is too.

 

I would however propose that model railway gear at the quality level typical in RTR OO falls below that critical 'added value' floor in Europe. Especially so as this product is for the UK, the home of laissez-faire economics, rather than the preferred managed economy concepts normal to much of modern Europe.

[Legend]

You may have discovered that in your own industry, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate to all the others. As a counter-example, the company I work for has found that using Chinese suppliers has been an excellent move.

 

In Hornby's case, the reality is that without outsourcing the company would probably have folded back at the end of the 90s. The fact that outsourcing has brought with it an entirely different set of problems is only to be expected, but that doesn't invalidate the original decision.

 

I think much is market dependent, but in general I'm afraid its best to keep your supply chain short and for full control keep it in house. There are other factors that need to be balanced, of course, the main one is cost, but really there is no point having a super cheap outsourced source of supply when it never delivers.  I suspect that Hornby would have agreed that moving to China has been an excellent move 8-10 years ago. I'll bet the shareholders are not too sure now, at least they are probably thinking they should have had a more diverse supply base in a few countries.

 

I haven't looked at a Hornby catalogue but am I correct in assuming that the list is most of what was promised for 2013?  If so it will produce a hole for both Hornby and model shops . What are they going to sell for remainder of year?

 

However all the above is the result of past poor decisions. Again you can see the effect of new management in more open-ness but I think more critically the appointment of a new Supply Chain Manager. So I'd say give Hornby a chance, it looks like they are trying very hard to get things sorted, but we are not going to see the results until 2014. Given the situation they are in , and I'm sure they've already thought about it, but it might be an idea to target limited production slots on new models that will have higher sales rather than new versions of older models. If they havent already , the Class 87 and former Virgin stock should just be cancelled. A waste of valuable production slots.

[Guest maxthemapman]

 

It's very simple in essence. A privately or sympathetically owned business in particular (not overly beholden to shareholders / investors) that has a fine product range and a workforce expert in the technology working like fury to advance the state of their art every day, can be competitive in Europe and other high wage economies, provided the added value ratio from input to output is above a critical floor level. That dedicated workforce has to be paid a competitive wage. The heartland of this method in Europe is of course Germany. But it happens all over Europe, and very good it is too.

 

I would however propose that model railway gear at the quality level typical in RTR OO falls below that critical 'added value' floor in Europe. Especially so as this product is for the UK, the home of laissez-faire economics, rather than the preferred managed economy concepts normal to much of modern Europe.

 

 

No, you are not getting it. If Hornby moved to China to reduce production costs of the Lima range, why did the retail prices then double?

[MarkSG]

  

 

No, you are not getting it. If Hornby moved to China to reduce production costs of the Lima range, why did the retail prices then double?

 

Because "Reduce production costs" and "Increase prices" are two separate parts of the same overall strategy known as "Make the range profitable".

[69843]

R3202 BR "Flying Scotsman" Class A3 50 Years Of Preservation Special Edition

 

 

Well, this is now going to be a 51 years of preservation model...

 

In all seriousness, at least it gives some of us a chance to save up for some other stock in the meantime.

[frobisher]

maxthemapman, on 10 Jul 2013 - 13:15, said:

No, you are not getting it. If Hornby moved to China to reduce production costs of the Lima range, why did the retail prices then double?

The two aren't incompatible...

 

Perhaps one reason that the Lima group went bust was that they were not charging enough for their product and were working on paper thin margins, which is probably why the "bag of bits" was not factory fitted. Also, towards the tail end of manufacturing companies' existences, you'll find that stock gets moved out to retail at dramatically cut rates just to liquidise those assets.

 

One of the reasons for the change in motor bogies for the UK range was that the existing Lima pancake motor could not be supplied in anything hoping to gain a CE certificate due to changes in EU regulations, and other Lima motors may be similarly compromised due to their (presumably) common source of manufacture. New motors mean generally a tooling change is required.

 

However Hornby didn't buy the manufacturing facilities when they bought the Lima brands and tooling from the administrators so couldn't have continued European manufacture in any case.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

  

 

No, you are not getting it. If Hornby moved to China to reduce production costs of the Lima range, why did the retail prices then double?

First prove that the prices doubled, taking into account the improvements required for the product to still be saleable, and the intervening monetary inflation.

 

Example:

Hattons today, Hornby R3182 GBRF class 66 from Lima tooling with their design motor bogie £52 on preorder.

Hattons 2003, Lima item 4966 66.703 in GBRF Bargain price - £49.

 

There's plenty more where that came from...

[oOld Harry 666]

On a more positive note, I have been checking with Hornby about some other lines and the latest information I have  (and it is only on these items listed) is:

 

Hornby Great gathering Mallard- Mid August.

Hornby Great Gathering others-  October.

Double Tender Bittern                - Mid September

Duke of Gloucester (not R/R)   -   Mid October.

[Guest maxthemapman]

 

First prove that the prices doubled, taking into account the improvements required for the product to still be saleable, and the intervening monetary inflation.

 

Example:

Hattons today, Hornby R3182 GBRF class 66 from Lima tooling with their design motor bogie £52 on preorder.

Hattons 2003, Lima item 4966 66.703 in GBRF Bargain price - £49.

 

There's plenty more where that came from...

 

 

No, you prove that manufacturing model trains is viable if you do it in China, but not viable if you do in in Italy.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Does anyone know whether the problem is one of design/manufacturing approval time or availability of manufacturing slots ?

 

I would note that many of the revised delivery dates that I have been indicated  by Hattons are for Early January 2014.  That means they will not be available for the (supposedly) very important Xmas selling period.  (Although, PRESUMABLY, slots that enable a delivery in time for Xmas sales would be at a premium.)

 

Again, as Hornby are having to push production back into 2014 this will PRESUMABLY affect the number of new models to be announced for 2014.

 

A shame for Hornby's balance sheet.

 

.