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Pre-Group modelling


mikeandnel
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I would not advocate moving layout threads into the interest group as this run the risk of making them less visible to the entire membership, I would suggest that, like here in the SR group a pinned thread with links to the layouts that are in the main layouts forum would be best.

The same I would suggest also applied to suitable workbench threads.

Edited by Graham_Muz
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After spending a couple of hours browsing various topics on this forum, I'm less convinced a Pre Grouping sub forum will be very useful, over the long term. For one thing, it seems way too easy for a topic to get off track, and there is no means of keeping the info on a subject updated. People post photos, or links to a site that are current, but if the photo is removed at a later time from the host site, or moved to a different one, it's gone from here. Same with links to blogs and web sites. And info itself is not updated, so it could get frustrating for someone exlporing modelling the time period. One example: I found several references in different threads, to C. Cox's 5 & 9 models, and the locos available, yet they aren't any longer.

 

Another problem is the not wanting to post info that one can only get from a particular Society or Association. There is a reluctance, it seems, to post info that has 'members only' availability.

 

Not sure if there is a viable alternative, such as a Yahoo group, a dedicated website, or maybe even a Pre-Grouping Association :), I guess we can only wait and see how this works out.

 

Jim F

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Hello JimF51

 

Not sure that I agree with you on this one.

I would prefer to give it a try and see what developes.

Like anything else, it might need tuning at a later date.

The reason that i say this is that there must be many people out there modelling many and varied pre-group

railways that would have something useful to contribute about methods of construction etc

 

Michael. 

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Michael, and all

 

I fully agree with your last sentance, and I really do hope that a central point can be set up for pre-grouping modelling. And I will contribute what I can, and as often as I can, to it, whatever form it takes.

I was just voicing doubts about whether a forum was the best means.

 

Once I can get the mental decision made, regarding scale and gauge, I'm sure my contibutions will be asking questions, more than supplying answers :) But if it gets discussions going, good.

 

With N, 2FS, OO, EMS, P4, O and 7FS, my head is a bit muddled right now (ok, more than usual :).

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With N, 2FS, OO, EMS, P4, O and 7FS, my head is a bit muddled right now (ok, more than usual :).

Jim

Although it is not exactly a "pregroup" question, your choice of scale and gauge might well be influenced by the availability of the things that you might want to do.

If you want the "railway in the landscape", or space is at a premium, then 2mm scale is a good choice. If you want big, chunky models with lots of detail, then 7mm might suit. 4mm scale strikes a balance between the two and probably has the broadest range of both RTR and kits. Sticking to RTR for the pregroup period will limit your scope very severely (basically Terriers in any of the three scales) and you are likely to want to explore some of the kitbuilding options quite soon (much sooner than if you are going for one of the later periods). On the other hand, if RTR is what you want to do, there is little advantage in going for the finescale options - whatever the scale. If building things is what gives you a buzz, then the finescale gauges should not be any more problematic. As an example, if you are prepared to have a go at etched brass, then almost any Brighton loco or carriage from 1870 onwards has been available at some time recently in 4mm scale. Being a member of the Brighton Circle will give you an inside track in knowing when a batch of something is likely to be run.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric

Edited by burgundy
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Just to add to Eric's post above; when I first started in 7mm I modelled the 1950s period and worked in 0 Fine, but the change to pre-Group also influenced my decision to move to ScaleSeven. My initial reason for this was purely due to the profile of the wheels on period rolling stock which always look delicate, almost spider-like, as here

 

Later I realised the other advantages of ScaleSeven; frames above the running plate were in line with those below, boilers never need holes cut out of the underside to accommodate out-of-scale flanges or treads, and the prototypical geometry of switches and crossings. For the really adventurous - and for that I mean if you like to scratchbuild everything for yourself - S Scale (1:64) is often considered to be perfect, being somewhere between 4mm and 7mm. A couple of pre-Group layouts can be seen here and here.

 

These decisions all suit me and my personal modelling requirements, but here are plenty of lovely pre-Group models and layouts which haven't been built in true-to-prototype gauges.

 

Edit: grammar

Edited by Buckjumper
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Here's a quick question for the SECR experts: I am in the process of finishing the Roxey LCDR brake van in SECR grey. As base coats, I have used Humbrol blue-grey #79, with the intention of using the correct SECR grey for the last couple of coats. However, I cannot find my tin of SECR grey at the moment. Can anyone tell me if the Humbrol 79 is reasonably close in colour? If so, I may just leave that as the final colour - it looks fairly close from the limited number of coloured photos I can find on Google.

p.s. As the post offices are now refusing to accept paints and the like, it is now nearly impossible to obtain new stocks of specialised model railway paints/colours over here in Australia.

Edited by SRman
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SRman

I am sure that you know that the paint you need is Phoenix Precision  P581 SECR Wagon Grey but I also cannot find any reference to sending paint overseas on their website.

For the colour you need I personally use some car primer areosols as they give a 'as near as dammit' result.
Would you like me to ask them is they have an Australian distributor?

Anyway, as you see, we now have our interest specific forum which Andy has set up today, so we hope that all questions like this will migrate to this new site

Michael

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Yes, I was probably a little too impatient and posed the question before the SIG was set up!

I managed to get some Phoenx Precision paints imported shortly before the PO bans applied, including some LSWR salmon, LSWR umber, LSWR loco green and SECR wagon grey but I cannot, fr the life of me, find that SECR grey. I know exactly where the other tins are, but not that one.  Annoying!   :help:  :cry:

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  • 1 year later...

For JimF51 and anyone else who might be interested

I have tried to attach a few photos of some of my older efforts as dollows:

LCDR 'R' class 0-4-4 

 

LCDR 'T' class 0-6-0

 

SECR 'J' class 0-6-4

 

Early Well Tank for our LSWR friends..

 

Hope the photos spark some comment and debate

 

Michae;

Good to see somebody else has built a "T" class - I model the SECR in early SR days, with long block sets of LCDR 6 wheelers and so on. At the moment, i'm finishing an LCDR "T" from a "Q" kit (a horrid piece of manufacture). I've been on the look out for a "J" for a bit, just because i like a good odd loco!

 

Stewart

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  • 1 year later...

Luckily this thread's not entirely dormant...
 

Granted I'm coming to this thread a few years after it was last updated, but I also model pre-grouping to early (1920-1930) Southern Eastern Region...

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one modelling the early Grouping. I'm at the top end of that period - 1930. My area is the western division of the SR, although I'm not going to let that stop me from allowing in the odd interloper from other SR divisions. Essentially, it means modelling pre-Grouping stock in Grouping colours. Right now I'm building an Etched Pixels/Ultima 6-wheel carriage kit for a race special, part of a rake of eight of them.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am also glad that this topic is still alive. I started it in 2013, but since then have developed Parkinsons and also passed my 84th birthday.

Since I last posted, I have been busy, with some help from Ian, laying the basis for a model of Midhurst, West Sussex LBSCR station in EM gauge as originally built in 1866. Track is laid and ballasted with sea ballast, the wiring is done, and everything works.. Backscene is also done.

The board is fast approaching the time when scenery can be started. The station building, signal box and loco shed are built and are currently being wired for lighting

The turntable is wired and rotates and I am receiving a lot of help and advice from various MERG members with the electronics.

All locos and rolling stock of the period are built and  ready including 'Jenny Lind, 'Inspector' (with a figure of William Stroudley!)and other locos in Improved Engine Green livery

Hopefully photos will be forthcoming when the 'shakes' stop

Best regards to you all

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  • 8 months later...

Hello everybody.

 

I would like to find the livery schemes of the LB&SC and SE&CR railways, at leas the colour codes or standard names. Are there books with such information? Does someone have what I am searching for?

 

Pre-Grouping rolling stock is good for a kind of modelling subject I am thinking about lately, modeling an heritage railway...

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Nigel Digby did some small pieces for BRM on the pregrouping railways and may have published them elsewhere. That would be a good start.

 

LBSCR - January 2002.

SER - January 1997

LC&DR - January 2000

 

but I have no reference for SECR

Edited by Andy Hayter
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For the Brighton there is a livery register recently published by the HMRS. See 

https://hmrs.org.uk/publications/books/books-in-print/southern-style-part-two-london-brighton-and-south-coast-railway.html

The standard names for the colours (for example Stroudley's Improved Engine Green) are unlikely to help you find a match among standard model colours and you are likely to have to look at the specialist railway ranges of paint. LB&SCR Modellers DIgest may help. 

Best wishes

Eric

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'Railway Liveries, 1923-1947' by Haresnape was rather useful, from my memory, and I believe it did cover some of the Southern's pre-grouping constituent liveries. It was very interesting, and there's also mention of Southern experimental liveries from 1922 through possibly '24 if that's of any interest?

 

Liveries generally for the two companies can be found, however, on these pages:

 

SECR-

 

http://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/shorthistoryofsecr.html - ''During his tenure locomotives and coaching stock displayed high standards of appearance and presentation, with the “full Wainwright” livery for locomotives being one of the most elaborate and decorative to be seen in the UK, until simplified just before the Great War, and in due course being replaced with plain greenish-grey. Similarly, coaching stock was of neat appearance and attractively painted, lined and lettered, at least until the plain brown livery of the war years replaced Wainwright’s crimson lake.''

 

Full Wainwright here would be black footplate tops and smokebox, tender/bunker interior and cab roof. The green is Brunswick, with red-yellow-red lining bands, and a red underframe (I'd try Vermillon red). Brass fittings were the order of the day. Coming into 1914 onwards, the liveries were simplified to more of an appley green with no lining. The obvious wartime livery for locomotive was all-over grey bar the buffer beam, retaining the usual red, and the black details.

 

Coaching stock is a contentious topic, as it was a mahogany/brown livery, but of course due to different interpretations and photographic exposures the colours are often vastly differing in models; I've heard of people using Phoenix Paints' Caledonian coaching colours with a drop of red to alter the pigmentation slightly, but the choice is ultimately yours.

 

 

LBSCR:

 

http://www.lbscr.org/livery/index.html

 

This webpage is a bit more comprehensive, with the liveries identified by era and CME.

 

I hope this is helpful!

 

Alexandra

 

Thank you very much, too bad that the book on Amazon can't be delivered to Italy...

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I have just stumbled across this. Usually I live mostly in the pre-Grouping section of the site (a better class of customer, I reckon!), but it is good to see pre-Grouping topics 'out and about' on the site. 

 

As my catholic interests include the main constituents of the Southern, I am glad to find this.  Not everyone would understand what I meant if I said "what I'd really like now is a Large Scotchman".  

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It's not a reference to the number of Scottish CMEs who moved to the South for work, is it? Or is it a locomotive nickname, the class of which I have yet to deduce?

 

The latter.  The London, Chatham & Dover had both Large and Small Scotchmen!

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  • 2 years later...
4 hours ago, Daniel Gee said:

What Pre Grouping liveries would you recommend?

The I ask is because I am going to be painting one of these:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/7YT39EAJK/0-4-0-side-tank?optionId=65683427&li=user-profile

A freelance prototype deserves a freelance livery ....... have fun inventing something for the Unlikely & Neverwas Railway !

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