Small Plymouth Goods in P4

[fender]

after months of not accepting that even slightly-compressed full-size Cornish stations won't fit into my spare bedroom(!) I've finally decided on what I think will be a nice little project. this is going to be a small goods yard set 'somewhere in Plymouth', although it is inspired by Valletort Road and I am using that as the basis for the layout, but with too many compromises to actually call it that.

 

era is 1950s.

 

I've decided to keep it small, only six foot by 1.5, for reasons of space, but also as this is my first full foray into P4 and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I've been reading through Paul Lunn's book on Building Micro Layouts, looking through Carl Arendt's great site, and although at six foot long perhaps it will be slightly too big to be called a Micro Layout, I will be taking a lot of their advice on board.

 

here's a basic plan I've thrown together in XTrkCAD with some graphics (proper plan in Templot is under construction):

 

 

the first thing is that at this length of layout I will have to accept some major compromises, and so compared so the original Valletort road (seven sidings and a long loop to start with) I will only be able to fit three sidings, no loop, and I have added a short headshunt as well.

 

however, I have tried to retain the 'flavour' of the scene by keeping the main road bridge ( B), the fact that the yard is not visible from the main line, the cutting that the main line is in, and another small bridge on the left (A), of which there are several in the area.

 

the tentative plan is that the main line goes under the bridge ( B) onto a sector plate, which then kicks back to a hidden siding along the back left part of the layout. there will also be a short fiddle yard connected to the left side of the layout.

 

although a short section of main line is represented there will obviously not be any typical main line trains on it, and this will be just a small fun shunting layout with a few extras thrown in. I envisage using a Pannier or a 45XX with three or four wagons and a brake van. I suppose I could at some point have a Pannier and autocoach run back and forth on the main line as well, on the way to and from Saltash.

 

it would be possible to expand the layout at some point in the future, representing Devonport station, which was immediately to the west and the one metre sector plate would allow for some slightly longer trains if I ever decided to do that.

 

so it's just meant to be a fun little layout, and hopefully I will be able to develop and hone my skills to apply to something grander when I get more space.

[fender]

next is to finalise the plan in templot.

 

I have to decide what exactly will be in the goods yard. the real place had a goods shed, a loading platform, what looks like a cattle dock and a large 15 ton two-track overhead crane. I'm not sure I can fit a goods shed into my plan, so at the moment I'm thinking of a loading platform and a smaller crane. perhaps I could put a small coal merchant's or some other small business like that as well.

 

I also need to decide what scenery I will put along the top of the layout. the real place has a road descending to the right from the bridge, while the main line curves away to the north east, but I can't do that, and anyway I think that would be too much road. perhaps some back-gardens and low-relief houses?

[BG John]

If you're limited for space, why use part of it for a bit of main line that isn't big enough to run main line trains on? If the main line was replaced by a branch line, you could run a single coach auto train, or a 2 car DMU or single railcar backwards and forwards on it.

[HillsideDepot]

Will follow this with interest as I like small layouts, and my father is a Plymothian so the city features large in my childhood memories.

 

You say you are considering "back gardens and low-relief houses" I'd say they are an essential part of the Plymouth scene, tall terraces, either painted or grey granite, and rows of washing, flying high from elevated lines.  

[fender]

If you're limited for space, why use part of it for a bit of main line that isn't big enough to run main line trains on? If the main line was replaced by a branch line, you could run a single coach auto train, or a 2 car DMU or single railcar backwards and forwards on it.

 

I have thought about that, and the thing is that if I make the goods yard longer then I'd have to extend the fiddle yard on the left side to accommodate the trains. at the moment the fiddle yard could be just 50cm long. alternatively I could make the layout shorter, say four feet with a short fiddle yard, but six foot isn't much bigger in terms of manhandling the layout around the house or fitting it in the car (when we move). making the layout longer than six feet would mean having two boards and it gets a lot more complicated.

 

I know it sounds silly having part of a main line, but I can still run those short trains you mention (there would have been a lot of them passing on that line anyway), and it allows me to have a short fun operating layout based on a real location that I'm interested in.

[Mallard60022]

If this is the little yard that was near Devonport Albert Rd. then Auto Trains are 'go' The new 64XX and some Comet or Airfix/Hornby Auto Coaches + some milk tanks. Great fun. Also nice idea as well for a start in P4. I seem to remember panniers doing the shunt here on the few occasions I witnessed anything happening!

I never quite got the reason for this Yard; do you know?

Phil (ex 83D)

[cary hill]

I never quite got the reason for this Yard; do you know?

Phil (ex 83D)

Simply a replacement for earlier inconvenient and inadequate arrangements?

 

If this is to be believed - the site is usually "reliable" - a couple of paragraphs part way down - http://www.plymouthdata.info/Railways-Stations-Devonport%20CR.htm

[fender]

^^^yes, that's what I had read as well. to add to what David M says above, traffic was transferred to the Kings Road depot after 1957. that information is from the Middleton Press Plymouth to St Austell book which also contains the only photo I've found of the goods yard when it was in service (photo 27).

[R A Watson]

Simply a replacement for earlier inconvenient and inadequate arrangements?If this is to be believed - the site is usually "reliable" - a couple of paragraphs part way down - http://www.plymouthdata.info/Railways-Stations-Devonport CR.htm

I know Brian the originator of this site and you can trust him any time, he has been collecting the info for over 40 years (that's how long I have known him!).

 

As an unusual scenic break at the south end of the yard you will need a cutting with occasional puffs of steam rising - that will be the Southern services going to Kings Road.

 

Wally

[Mallard60022]

Ah well done chaps. I thought it was used for Engineers bits and bobs around 59/60/61. I have some recollection of it but as it was not really on a route home from school and I was but a callow youth, I never really investigated it in any depth (as with many things in and around Plymouth, Devonport and especially out in the Plympton direction, except for Laira of course!)

Phil

[Gordon A]

Is it worth considering your sector plate with cassettes? This would make it easier to swop trains. 

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[fender]

yes I might do cassettes. thanks.

[fender]

I've been playing around with Templot (what a brilliant program) and have come up with the following track plan:

 

 

the black areas will be elevated with the track beneath hidden, and please ignore the 'main' double curve at the rear, that's just there to give me an idea of how to align the tracks for the sector plate or cassette (whichever I decide to do).

 

the layout of the yard is the best I've come up with yet. it's a tight space but with two sidings on the loading dock and the crane able to access two sidings, I think it works ok. I'd be happy for any other ideas though. I just stuck a 'hut' there as I'll have another small building or two somewhere, although that's not a good place for it at the moment!

 

the siding at the back of the goods yard will be tight up against the fence, and there will be a steep grass embankment with either a narrow road and low relief house fronts on the other side, or low relief house backs and gardens. I should be able to squeeze a couple of low-relief house backs and gardens on the rear left, with the embankment falling steeply away below them. the front black area will probably have a road running in from the left, to then cross the railway, but I don't think I'll be able to fit any buildings in. I'm a bit wary of there being too much 'road' on this plan, so I'll have to think about how to mitigate that.

 

I forgot to mention that the turnouts are of varying sizes depending on how the track curves at that point. minimum curves are just over 1000mm, but by curving the tracks I've managed to keep the turnouts quite short (for P4!). not quite the micro points you can get for code 100 track, but I've stolen a few extra centimetres of siding space by doing this. so easy to do in templot. now all I have to do is make the things!

[Gordon A]

What minimum radius are you working to?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[fender]

for now I've made sure none are smaller than 1000mm, although I'm not sure what the smallest on the plan is. it needs a few tweaks here and there before I print it out, and wherever I can steal more radius without extending things too much I'll do it.

[Gordon A]

That sounds a bit tight for shunting where you are using the wagons buffers as opposed  to any coupling to push the wagons.

I think you will get buffer locking with long wheel base and bogie vehicles.

 

I tend to go for 42" minimum radius because of buffer locking and I use Alex Jackson couplings.

 

Gordon

[fender]

thanks for that Gordon, I will bear it in mind. I'll be using mostly short wheelbase vans and wagons as the sidings are quite short, and they will have sprung buffers, which may help. however, I'll see what I can do to open the radii out a little. 42" isn't much more than the tightest radius I have at the moment, so it should be possible. the right-hand-most turnout needs to be lengthened a fair bit though (I've just noticed).

 

as far as couplings go, I'm going to go for three-link initially and see how much it drives me crazy. the point of this layout is to attempt to perfect my skills in all areas before moving on to something better (and hopefully bigger!). so I'm going in to it with an open mind and if things don't work then I'll change them.

 

I've got the luxury of starting from the beginning, having only built one turnout, converted one loco (Bachmann Pannier) and one van, and am halfway through my first van kit. some things are working well. I like track building, and putting in sprung buffers and 3-link couplings seems pretty straightforward. the jury is still well and truly out on compensation/springing. I used the MJT(?) rocker method on the first van, which works but is not very straightforward to put in, and I'm going to use a trick I read about in MRJ for adding cheap/easy springing to RTR wagons for the next one. I've also got sprung w-irons to put in to a wagon. so I'll try all those and see which I like best.

[fender]

right, had a bit of a rethink and decided what I was attempting was way too ambitious. BG John is right: considering the space it doesn't make sense to have a main, and considering the huge extra effort involved in having the rear fiddle yard (whether it be cassettes or a sector plate) I've decided to concentrate on the yard itself and ditch the main line section.

 

so this new plan should be more fun to operate, quicker and simpler to build, and is much closer to the original yard layout. plus, there should still be enough space to capture the flavour of the area:

 

 

the original yard had seven sidings. the ones I have missed out are one at the top of the layout, which ran to the other side of the loading platform, one that ran hard up against the near wall of the goods shed, and a short spur that ran to the end of the cattle dock. the rest of the sidings are more or less as they were, with the goods shed/loading platform, two tracks under a large overhead crane and the end of the loop on the cattle-dock siding. the line then ran back under the bridge, ran alongside the main line for a short distance and the loop closed before the remaining track connected to the down main.

 

the turnouts are all A5s at a minimum radius of 1068mm (42in) as suggested above, except for the loop turnout which had to be a B6 as I wanted some space between the crane sidings and the cattle dock one. there is quite a lot of track, hopefully not too much, although the point of this is operation and learning the trade, so to speak, so I'm not too bothered about that. plus, the original yard was quite cramped anyway.

 

the white/green squares to the top left will be some arrangement of house backs and gardens, but that still has to be designed in properly. the front and back of the layout will all be elevated above the yard, with some suitable city backscene beyond.

 

it's going to be a while before I can get stuck into this as holidays beckon.

[BG John]

right, had a bit of a rethink and decided what I was attempting was way too ambitious. BG John is right: considering the space it doesn't make sense to have a main, and considering the huge extra effort involved in having the rear fiddle yard (whether it be cassettes or a sector plate) I've decided to concentrate on the yard itself and ditch the main line section.

Oh hell! It will be all my fault if you're not happy with the outcome . Even worse, I might have to listen to other people if/when I let my latest plan loose on an unsuspecting world .

[Gordon A]

Fender,

 

Looks interesting.

Questions -

 

How do the road vehicles gain access to the goods shed?

 

What is the second siding being used for as there is no road vehicle access to the wagons parked on?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[Miss Prism]

An overhead crane in the 1950s?

[fender]

Fender,

 

Looks interesting.

Questions -

 

How do the road vehicles gain access to the goods shed?

 

What is the second siding being used for as there is no road vehicle access to the wagons parked on?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

thanks.

 

the road access to the good shed would be a ramp onto the loading platform. however, I recognise that's not very prototypical. maybe I'll have to look at widening the layout a bit to make it more believable, and I'd like there to be a little more space there anyway. I hadn't thought about the 2nd siding, so widening would help that as well. I could also just move the goods shed to siding 2, and shorten siding #1 so that it terminates a little way into the other side of the loading platform, which would also look like the real track plan, and that would give plenty of space for road access at the back of the goods shed. that might be a better idea.

 

An overhead crane in the 1950s?

 

perhaps I am using the wrong terminology. I will look it up.

 

edit: well I think overhead crane is correct. gantry crane, or bridge crane perhaps. this one doesn't run on tracks itself so I'm not sure. there was one in Valletort road and another at Wenford Bridge off the top of my head (there must be others!)

 

my Wenford Bridge To Fowey book calls it a 'gantry' crane.

 

anyway, it would still look good over just one track I think, so maybe I'll opt for the plan I've suggested above, to acquire more space.

[fender]

here's another iteration:

 

 

there are still some things to be tweaked, but I think I can get away with not widening the layout. the embankment at the rear doesn't need to be as deep as that (all it will be will be a grass bank with a fence on the top and the backscene behind). that would allow me to widen the loading platform a little. I also need to think about how long siding one is and how it interacts with the goods shed and loading platform exactly, but I think this version deals with the vehicle-access issue for the goods yard and sidings. I need to look at the cattle dock width as well. 

[Gordon A]

Fender,

The layout looks pretty good.

At some risk to my health, how common were outside loading docks on the GWR /WR(BR)?

This would necessitate double handling from the wagon to the dock to lorry. I would have thought most customers would want to transfer straight from wagon to lorry or vice versa.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[fender]

Fender,

The layout looks pretty good.

At some risk to my health, how common were outside loading docks on the GWR /WR(BR)?

This would necessitate double handling from the wagon to the dock to lorry. I would have thought most customers would want to transfer straight from wagon to lorry or vice versa.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

I couldn't say how common they were but I can think of examples at Valletort, St Austell (goods yard), Liskeard, St Columb, Bugle, and I'm sure there were quite a few others (I don't know much outside of Cornwall).