widened lines freight

[sb67]

I was watching a fantastic film on youtube, which I'm sure was posted on here, about the Kings Cross to Moorgate widened lines and it showed freight trains running. Does anyone know where they would be going to and from and if there are any pictures or books on the subject.

Cheers

Steve

[Xerces Fobe2]

I think they were heading to and from the Southern Region via what is now the Thameslink tunnel.

 

XF

[bbishop]

Well, not quite.  The alignment from Farringdon was through Snow Hill, coming up beside Holborn Viaduct and crossing the Thames on a now demolished bridge.  The freight traffic was mostly mineral, tripped from Brent and Ferme Park on the Midland and Great Northern respectively.  The two companies provided a fair chunk of the capital for the City Extension of the LCDR, gained running rights and built various coal depots - ie the MR had Camberwell and the GNR had Brockley Lane.  There would also have been some general freight, mostly to Herne Hill, but some (probably off the GNR) would have gone down the loop to Metropolitan Junction, though London Bridge to Hither Green.

 

Completely from memory so E&OE,

 

Bill

[BR(S)]

Not freight, but people might enjoy these films:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpb9oZ6f3g

[Miss Prism]

Metropolitan: parcels to Vine Street depot (opened 1909, closed 1936).

Midland through goods:

- to Southern company yards (Hither Green and, probably less so, Feltham);

- coal transfers to Southern company yards;

- coal to MR depots at Brixton (closed 1947), Walworth Road (aka Amelia St; not closed until 1973) and Wandsworth Road (Stewarts Lane), all in South London; and Maidstone in Kent (no through loco working); all those on SE&CR; and Peckham Rye (over LB&SC), depot joint with L&NWR;

- general merchandise to Walworth Road;

Midland local goods to Whitecross Street depot

 

GNR: through goods

- (especially) coal, transfers from Ferme Park / Holloway to yards at Herne Hill or Hither Green (SE&CR), Battersea (LB&SC) or Feltham (L&SWR), for onward running;

- coal trips to GNR S London depots at Elephant & Castle (closed 1 July 1963) and Brockley Lane (closed 1958), both on SE&C;

- general goods, again transfers to Southern company yards;

- van & horse-box transfers Kings X to Victoria / Cannon St.

GNR local goods to Farrindon depot;

GWR through goods:  meat, poultry and other vegetable produce traffic to GW Receiving Station at Smithfield Market.

 

 

[bbishop]

Milady, thanks for that.  My only doubt is the Feltham traffic.  I think Brent to Feltham trains would travel on the North & South Western Junction Joint Railway. 

 

Bill

[Fat Controller]

Milady, thanks for that.  My only doubt is the Feltham traffic.  I think Brent to Feltham trains would travel on the North & South Western Junction Joint Railway. 

 

Bill

Should it be traffic to Norwood Junction, rather than Feltham? Brent- Feltham traffic would surely have gone via Kew.

[sb67]

Thanks for that. The other to videos are also fascinating, I travel on the tube now and again and always try and imagine what it must have been like.

Steve

[The Stationmaster]

 

Metropolitan: parcels to Vine Street depot (opened 1909, closed 1936).

Midland through goods:

- to Southern company yards (Hither Green and, probably less so, Feltham);

- coal transfers to Southern company yards;

- coal to MR depots at Brixton (closed 1947), Walworth Road (aka Amelia St; not closed until 1973) and Wandsworth Road (Stewarts Lane), all in South London; and Maidstone in Kent (no through loco working); all those on SE&CR; and Peckham Rye (over LB&SC), depot joint with L&NWR;

- general merchandise to Walworth Road;

Midland local goods to Whitecross Street depot

 

GNR: through goods

- (especially) coal, transfers from Ferme Park / Holloway to yards at Herne Hill or Hither Green (SE&CR), Battersea (LB&SC) or Feltham (L&SWR), for onward running;

- coal trips to GNR S London depots at Elephant & Castle (closed 1 July 1963) and Brockley Lane (closed 1958), both on SE&C;

- general goods, again transfers to Southern company yards;

- van & horse-box transfers Kings X to Victoria / Cannon St.

GNR local goods to Farrindon depot;

GWR through goods:  meat, poultry and other vegetable produce traffic to GW Receiving Station at Smithfield Market.

 

Being rather pedantic about it the GWR freights to Smithfield didn't run along the Widened Lines - they used the Metropolitan/Circle Line to Aldersgate where they crossed over the Widened Lines to get to Smithfield Goods.  Something of a culture shock on a Saturday afternoon seeing a 97XX pannier charging through Baker St with a train of vans.

[Oldddudders]

Well, not quite.  The alignment from Farringdon was through Snow Hill, coming up beside Holborn Viaduct and crossing the Thames on a now demolished bridge.  

Yes, in those days the line left Blackfriars more or less on the level and proceeded north towards Holborn Viaduct, crossing Ludgate Hill on a bridge. It was a property developer who proposed closing Holborn Viaduct and creating a new underground station - now called City Thameslink. ISTR nearly 30 years ago standing in front of the City Fathers and convincing them that this was a Good Idea from a BR perspective, plus it would meet one of their eternal objectives - ensuring maximum visibility of St Paul's Cathedral, by removing the unsightly bridge. However, if the Channel Tunnel were ever built, and it were to serve the City, a longer station would be needed to accommodate the International trains. Thus were born the long platforms at City Thameslink, the whole paid for by the developer.

[Miss Prism]

Being rather pedantic about it the GWR freights to Smithfield didn't run along the Widened Lines - they used the Metropolitan/Circle Line to Aldersgate where they crossed over the Widened Lines to get to Smithfield Goods.

 

GWR freights did cross over to and along the Widened Lines (overview) at Farringdon. Originally, the Farringdon crossover was double tracked, but later was singled, although remaining bi-directional. Trains to Smithfield traversed the up widened line and went into Aldersgate and then reversed (via 26 and OG8) into the labyrinthine Smithfield Goods. (I don't think there was ever a facing crossover into Smithfield Goods for the up direction.) Trains exiting Smithfield crossed the Smithfield curve directly onto the down widened lines again (but why the seeming duplication of signals 2 and 6 on the Smithfield junction?), and crossed back over to the Met at Farringdon.

 

How down trains from Smithfield Goods were marshalled is quite a puzzle, and there must have been some nifty moves in getting a brake van on the back of the train! (The place was probably full of capstans.)

[jonhall]

 

 

 

How down trains from Smithfield Goods were marshalled is quite a puzzle, and there must have been some nifty moves in getting a brake van on the back of the train! (The place was probably full of capstans.)

 

Smithfield has been covered several times on the excellent London Reconnections blog, start here

 

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/london-terminals-fullsome-farringdon-part-1/

 

and here

 

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/london-terminals-fighting-over-farringdon-part-2/

[bike2steam]

Not freight, but people might enjoy these films:

 

About a minute in, you see a short siding, in the 60's it used to be always occupied by a banker - if not needed at the time.

 

Also - the Brent to Feltham freights were mentioned, I used to watch them trundle past while in Willesden shed yard, as they passed over the LNWR main-line.

[The Stationmaster]

About a minute in, you see a short siding, in the 60's it used to be always occupied by a banker - if not needed at the time.

 

 

It always seemed to be a 350hp shunter in the days when I passed by looking out for it although I've a vague earlier memory of it being a steam engine but can't recall what it was as I only saw it once or twice.

[The Stationmaster]

 

GWR freights did cross over to and along the Widened Lines (overview) at Farringdon. Originally, the Farringdon crossover was double tracked, but later was singled, although remaining bi-directional. Trains to Smithfield traversed the up widened line and went into Aldersgate and then reversed (via 26 and OG8) into the labyrinthine Smithfield Goods. (I don't think there was ever a facing crossover into Smithfield Goods for the up direction.) Trains exiting Smithfield crossed the Smithfield curve directly onto the down widened lines again (but why the seeming duplication of signals 2 and 6 on the Smithfield junction?), and crossed back over to the Met at Farringdon.

 

How down trains from Smithfield Goods were marshalled is quite a puzzle, and there must have been some nifty moves in getting a brake van on the back of the train! (The place was probably full of capstans.)

Thanks Miss P, blame me for thinking more in terms of the western end of the Widened Lines and Ray Street Gridiron (maximum speed 20 mph for Western trains passing over it.  Also one of Jonhall's links has enabled me to make much more sense of the Instructions from the 1960s signal numbering.  An interesting thing is that the WR Instructions would appear to have made provision for movements on the Met as far as Aldersgate as they include details for operating the backlock release plungers in the Met Sidings there - or possibly for simply getting an engine or whatever out of the way?

 

Trains to Smithfield were seriously length limited to a maximum load of 25 wagons plus one (special) brakevan branded 'Acton - Smithfield'.  The length limit was clearly at least in part related to shunting at Smithfield although oddly all the enginemen I have spoken to over the years about working there never mentioned any particular shunting problems and I was - of course - far too interested in the working over the Met Line to ask them.  A great shame as many former Old Oak men always seemed to enjoy their tales of the Met/Smithfield Link and even 'Billy' Wells spent as much time talking about that (with Metro tanks in his firing days) as he did talking about driving in the 1948 loco exchanges.  Alas I'm out of touch with all of them now but there are possibly still a few around who worked on the Smithfields?

[Miss Prism]

An interesting thing is that the WR Instructions would appear to have made provision for movements on the Met as far as Aldersgate as they include details for operating the backlock release plungers in the Met Sidings there - or possibly for simply getting an engine or whatever out of the way?

 

Light engine and brake van movements from the Met to the widened lines using the Aldersgate sidings are a possibility, Mike, but I think we can probably rule out the use of the Aldersgate sidings for most Smithfield up trains because siding 21 isn't long enough for a 25-wagon train, and besides which, the operating priority would seem to have been getting the Smithfield freights off the Met and onto the widened lines as soon as possible. (No freights were allowed in rush hours.) Siding 21 might have been used from Aldersgate platform 3 if cutting up trains before shuffling them into the depot - it's not obvious how a full 25-wagon train could be reversed into the depot in one go, particularly if an outgoing down train was partially marshalled. No doubt it all ran like clockwork, but it must have been a fascinating place to see in action.

 

In much earlier times, I think Aldersgate sidings 21 and 22 were in fact the Met goods platforms, so presumably were occupied by Met wagons, and thus not available for GWR trains.

[The Stationmaster]

Light engine and brake van movements from the Met to the widened lines using the Aldersgate sidings are a possibility, Mike, but I think we can probably rule out the use of the Aldersgate sidings for most Smithfield up trains because siding 21 isn't long enough for a 25-wagon train, and besides which, the operating priority would seem to have been getting the Smithfield freights off the Met and onto the widened lines as soon as possible. (No freights were allowed in rush hours.) Siding 21 might have been used from Aldersgate platform 3 if cutting up trains before shuffling them into the depot - it's not obvious how a full 25-wagon train could be reversed into the depot in one go, particularly if an outgoing down train was partially marshalled. No doubt it all ran like clockwork, but it must have been a fascinating place to see in action.

 

In much earlier times, I think Aldersgate sidings 21 and 22 were in fact the Met goods platforms, so presumably were occupied by Met wagons, and thus not available for GWR trains.

Engine & van yes - the plunger Instructions only applied to them in any case, sorry for not noting that.

 

As far as 'tight' working is concerned below is the September 1938 service timetable for the Smithfield trains and note that there are some pretty close margins between successive arrivals at Smithfield - look at the 11.20 p.m. arrival followed by another at 11.32 pm and then a third at 11.48 p.m. and I would think it reasonable to expect that at least the latter two were regular runners while in that same period there was only one departure meaning there would have been a couple of trains there together, must have been an interesting bit of shunting.  

 

Look too at the times allowed - Farringdon pass to Smithfield arrive allowed 3 minutes, including setting back, while 3 minutes was also allowed in the opposite direction from Smithfield to Farringdon.  

 

[Miss Prism]

You're a treasure trove, Mike, and many thanks for that timetable. 1 minute from Aldersgate arrival to Smithfield arrival indicates trains were reversed into the depot immediately. With a train of approx 580' though, I can't see how it could get into the depot (600' long?) without some splitting and shuffling, and accommodating 75 wagon arrivals within a 30-minute period must have been quite a feat, particularly considering all wagons traversing the Met were required to be 'double-coupled'. Similarly, I can't see how a full down train could be assembled without going past the depot's down starter.
 
The light engine pattern is interesting, and it would seem there could be up to four or maybe five brake vans in the depot at particular times.
 
Notwithstanding the use of condensing engines, there must have been a water crane somewhere on site?

[The Stationmaster]

You're a treasure trove, Mike, and many thanks for that timetable. 1 minute from Aldersgate arrival to Smithfield arrival indicates trains were reversed into the depot immediately. With a train of approx 580' though, I can't see how it could get into the depot (600' long?) without some splitting and shuffling, and accommodating 75 wagon arrivals within a 30-minute period must have been quite a feat, particularly considering all wagons traversing the Met were required to be 'double-coupled'. Similarly, I can't see how a full down train could be assembled without going past the depot's down starter.

 

The light engine pattern is interesting, and it would seem there could be up to four or maybe five brake vans in the depot at particular times.

 

Notwithstanding the use of condensing engines, there must have been a water crane somewhere on site?

Tackling the last point first I think it was possible to take water at Smithfield and it would definitely have been a sensible precaution in view of the reported propensity of the 97XXs to boil the water in their tanks when condensing (a couple of former Old Oak Firemen related to me years back how they tended to get very serious rebukes from their Drivers if they attempted to switch the engine to condensing  - Instructions it would seem were one thing and the reality quite another).

 

BTW I have now found the1947 service and it was much reduced from the pre-war level although the timings were similar.  And don't forget not only were the wagons double coupled (or supposed to be) but there were also vacuum pipes connected on at least 8 of them in every train. Logically I presume the train was set back as far as possible, the van cut-off in the short headshunt spur at the east end and then the train was split or maybe the engine was simply crossed over onto the departure siding - all the shunting would have been by capstans and the wagon turntables I would presume unless the headshunts were lengthened at some time?