Pre Grouping general discussion

[Worsdell forever]

Amongst model makers I think that has long been the case. Go to a major "finescale", S4 Society or EMGS event and you will invariably see 4mm pre group layouts and models. Pre-group kits have been available for a decades, going back to Gem, K's, etc.

 

The RTR buyers are starting to see the attraction of the pre-group period, but still want to buy their locos and stock ready made. The various well supported wish lists are evidence of that. Although things are getting better, there is still a very long way to go before any pre-group railway will be well represented with locos and stock.

 

One of my reasons for me going back to pre-grouping days was the non availability of RTR, it's backfiring a bit now! There isn't really much chance of what I need being done RTR anytime soon, much of it will be pushing it for kits too, I'd like a couple of 398 0-6-0s but there's so many variations which one would you choose? 

 

Then I'd like an F, 1440, 901... the list goes on.

[Jol Wilkinson]

One of my reasons for me going back to pre-grouping days was the non availability of RTR, it's backfiring a bit now! There isn't really much chance of what I need being done RTR anytime soon, much of it will be pushing it for kits too, I'd like a couple of 398 0-6-0s but there's so many variations which one would you choose? 

 

Then I'd like an F, 1440, 901... the list goes on.

Paul, 

 

a NER F kit may be sooner rather than later.

 

Jol

[Edwardian]

 

The RTR buyers are starting to see the attraction of the pre-group period, but still want to buy their locos and stock ready made. The various well supported wish lists are evidence of that. Although things are getting better, there is still a very long way to go before any pre-group railway will be well represented with locos and stock.

 

I think that sums it up quite well. 

[Northroader]

The 1921 SECR boat train stock had the umber brown (quote: almost indistguishable from the LBSC carriage colour) introduced from July 1916.

P.S. Maunsell on the SECR did try olive on locos for a short time before going for grey, but not on coaches.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Northroader

[Tom Burnham]

The Thanet stock was delivered in 1924-5 and built at Eastleigh and Lancing (though it was designed at Ashford) and would have been turned out in early SR green.

 

The first 8 Continental carriages came out in 1921 (and thus in SE&CR brown as Northroader says) but another two 8-coach trains were only completed in late 1923 and carried SR numbers (and presumably SR green livery) from the start.  Further carriages of this general type were ordered by the Southern, built by Ashford, Eastleigh and outside contractors.

 

So I'd think only the first Continental 8-coach train would have run in SE&CR brown.

 

Details from David Gould's Bogie Carriages of the SE&CR (1993) and Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock (3rd edition, 2000).  I hope Ashford library would still have copies of these works...

Edited December 15, 2018 by Tom Burnham

[Caley Jim]

Not sure whether this is the most appropriate place to post this, but the following is copied from the Caledonian Railway Association forum :-

 

CR419 will be travelling around 4 preserved railways in England between now and end May.
East Lancashire Railway 8-10 March
Swanage Railway 29-31 March
North Norfolk 5-7 April
Gloucester Warwickshire Railway 25-27 May

 

Jim

[Argos]

She also paid a visit to the Churnet Valley line in February.

It is only a few miles down the road from me but I didn't find out until the Monday after 

 

Some great photos and videos around on the web though.

 

 

[Argos]

A book I've had on pre-order for a while dropped through the letter box today.

 

It might be of interest to the readers of the forum:-

 

 

I believe it is written by the proprietors of Parliamentary Trains who supply 0 Gauge kits for such modelling.

 

I'm looking forward to reading it, I only hope it isn't too inspiring.

I don't need another distraction! 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Peter and Stephen are indeed Parly Trains;

 

http://www.parlytrains.co.uk/

 

Peter was the PC in PC Models, the 4mm range of carriage kits with pre-printed sides. No longer in production, they do appear regularly on Ebay. 

 

As Peter and Stephen were both heavily involved in the LNWR Society some years ago,  unsurprisingly Parly Trains has a leaning towards the London and Birmingham Railway and the early LNWR.

 

London Road Models also do some 4mm for early LNWR models, including the McConnell Bloomer and  24ft  four wheel carriages.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson
Spelling/grammar

[dseagull]

Question which I didn't know where else to put!

 

How many wagons (of the same diagram) would a works turn out in a year?

 

Bit of background; My new layout will be set in the late winter/early spring of 1914. So far, I have built three Cambrian LBSC opens. The diagram they were based on was introduced in 1912, being built until 1926, with wagon numbers starting (according to the instructions) at 3449 and finishing at 6000.

 

I wanted to avoid sequential numbering, so these first three are 3461, 3486 and 3502 respectively. How high could I realistically go?

[BlueLightning]

I think I have the build dates for each batch of wagons at home. I'll have a look when I get in later and let you know. 

 

Gary

[chuffinghell]

On 07/03/2019 at 18:38, Argos said:

She also paid a visit to the Churnet Valley line in February.

It is only a few miles down the road from me but I didn't find out until the Monday after 

 

Some great photos and videos around on the web though.

 

 

 

I missed out too 

[Caley Jim]

The Newsletter of the HMRS dropped through the letterbox this morning. those of a Southern persuasion my be interested in the book advertised on the cover - 'LB&SCR Carriages Volume 3 Bogie Stock 1897-1907'  Described as 'Due out any day'.

 

Jim

[Northroader]

Carriages on bogies??!! It will never catch on, James.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Carriages on bogies??!! It will never catch on, James.

Stranger things have happened.  I've even heard of carriages lit by electrickery!

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

While on holiday this week I started reading Jim Summers' excellent new book 'Operating The Caledonian Railway Vol 1'.  In the section describing the work of a goods brakesman ( goods guard) there is this snipit on marshalling of goods trains:

 

'Protests arose from diligent brakesmen that high goods vans were needlessly marshalled in front of the brake van, depriving them of any view ahead; management went so far as to publish instructions to yard staff to desist from this marshalling whenever the traffic allowed'.

 

The instruction itself suggests that open or flat wagons should be marshalled next to the brake van and that guards should report all cases when this is not adhered to.  Did other companies have similar instructions?

 

Not all CR brake vans had side lookouts but even with a lookout it cannot have been comfortable to sit looking sideways all the time, so a better and more comfortable view would be had through the end windows.  Perhaps we should bear this in mind when assembling our goods trains.

 

Jim

[Argos]

Hi Jim,

 

Hope you are enjoying your trip.

It is a great book, a bit heavy going at times but well worth the effort.

Lots of information that can only make our models more accurate.

 

You're point about vans in front of the guards van was captured nicely by Dave John in his blog recently:-

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Argos

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Argos said:

Hope you are enjoying your trip.

We were in foreign parts from Sunday to Friday (Berwick!).  

 

Jim

[queensquare]

Ive just picked up a Bill Bedford etch in 2mm scale for a  M&GNR 27' passenger brake van. There was a daily parcels train from Bath to Leicester and, as well as Midland LWSR and S&D stock Id like to include the odd 'foreigner'. A nice, teak,  M&GNR van heading home via Leicester is not too far out of the realms of possibility!! 

 

Anyway, I have very little in my library on the M&GNR. Ive done an internet search but could only find a similar six wheel vehicle - the one I have is a four wheeler. Could anyone help me out with a picture or other potentially useful info such as livery etc. Evidence that these vans are unlikely to have made it as far west as Bath will be respectfully ignored!! 

 

Many thanks in anticipation, 

 

Jerry

[richard i]

A specialist party of a specialist railway. I wish you luck in your search.

richard

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

Ive just picked up a Bill Bedford etch in 2mm scale for a  M&GNR 27' passenger brake van. There was a daily parcels train from Bath to Leicester and, as well as Midland LWSR and S&D stock Id like to include the odd 'foreigner'. A nice, teak,  M&GNR van heading home via Leicester is not too far out of the realms of possibility!! 

 

Anyway, I have very little in my library on the M&GNR. Ive done an internet search but could only find a similar six wheel vehicle - the one I have is a four wheeler. Could anyone help me out with a picture or other potentially useful info such as livery etc. Evidence that these vans are unlikely to have made it as far west as Bath will be respectfully ignored!! 

 

Many thanks in anticipation, 

 

Jerry

 

I suspect what you have, given the 4 wheels and the 27' length, is an ex-Eastern & Midland Railway "large stock" luggage brake.

 

Livery was a painted "dark teak" finish, so probably darker than, say, GN's 'real' varnished teak.

 

This was derived by the application of graining in a mixture of burnt umber, burnt sienna and raw umber water colours on a buff base. This was then varnished.

 

The lettering was either JtM&GN or M&GN. Class was indicated in words and lining was quarter inch lemon chrome fine-lined in ultramarine. Crests appeared on first class doors.

 

For the luggage van, the drawing I have seen has from the brake end: Ducket, single door, 3 vertical panels with waist band below bearing 'M&GN', double doors, 4 vertical panels with waist band below bearing 'LUGGAGE VAN' double doors, 2 vertical panels with waist band below bearing the vehicle's running number.

 

Running numbers (in the 1903 scheme) were 183-194 inclusive. 

 

 

[queensquare]

That's very helpful Edwardian, many thanks. Ive attached a picture of the etch and it looks as if you have identified the vehicle correctly. Any idea where I might find a picture or a drawing.

 

Jerry

 

[Regularity]

Ah, something like this, handbuilt by Trevor Nunn in S scale€:

Edited June 26, 2019 by Regularity
Extra pictures

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

That's very helpful Edwardian, many thanks. Ive attached a picture of the etch and it looks as if you have identified the vehicle correctly. Any idea where I might find a picture or a drawing.

 

Jerry

 

 

Yes, that's the badger.

 

The only photograph I've seen of one of these is this one, where it is the last vehicle in the train .... not very clear.

 

 

There is a basic drawing, reproduced quite small, in one of the books.  I can scan this for you, but in the meantime ...

 

 

I think that you could probably obtain a better drawing from the MGN Circle.  Drawings cat nos. MGN RS D06 and MGN RS D06A are probably of these vans: Link to List

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Ah, something like this, handbuilt by Trevor Nunn in S scale€:

 

Yes, that's the one.