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My son is currently working for Morgan Sindal on the contract to make a dive-under on the Stamford lines at 79m 15ch at Werrington/Dukesmead.  They have just dug this up while digging a trial hole.

 

IMG-20190730-WA0000.jpg.a9b4cd38777c4500e3c25ac965ded145.jpg

 

Can anyone identify what it is?  the plate is painted blue and the post white and there are no cast letters or holes on the plate.

 

Jim

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Is this on the Midland side or the Great Northern side? It's not a Midland boundary marker - those were one-piece, forged from old rail. I haven't been able to find an image of a Great Northern one.

It's on the ECML. So I presume GN. My knowledge of that neck of the woods is minimal to say the least! I wondered if it was a 3/4 mile marker, but they were cast with raised letters. 

 

Jim 

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46 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

It's on the ECML. So I presume GN. My knowledge of that neck of the woods is minimal to say the least! I wondered if it was a 3/4 mile marker, but they were cast with raised letters. 

 

Jim 

 

Peterborough has a complicated railway history, with four major companies running into the city - London & North Western, Midland, Great Eastern, and Great Northern, together with the Midland & Great Northern Joint running in over the Midland lines. The LNWR's line from Northampton was the oldest, being opened in 1845 as a branch of the London & Birmingham Railway; hot on its heels, and making an end-on junction with it, was the GER's line from March - Eastern Counties Railway at the time of opening in 1847. Meanwhile the Midland Railway's Syston and Peterborough line had arrived from the north, opening in 1846.

 

The Great Northern arrived from the north in 1848, at first using the Eastern Counties station (as, I think, did everyone else). Its line was built parallel to, and just to the east of, the Midland line as far as Helpston. The main line to London was not open until 1850, along with a station on the present site.

 

The Peterborough, Wisbech and Sutton Bridge Railway arrived in the early 1860s; it was initially operated under contract by the Midland, though in due course it became a constituent of the Eastern & Midlands, from 1893, the M&GNJR. Although coming in from the east, it crossed the GN and Midland lines before looping round to join the Midland at Wisbech Junction, with access to the GN via Westwood Junction - which had been used since 1866 to give Midland passenger trains access to the GN station.

 

The RCH diagram makes everything clear, as was its purpose:

 

733858116_Peterborough__Longville_RJD_compressed.jpg.dd1f68e30a04ebffc027e5ff71d2df84.jpg

 

So, if your son's work is, as I infer, in the vicinity of Westwood Junction, this artefact could originate with one of three companies or their successors.

 

One curiosity on that RCH map is that the curve from the GN to the GE line is shown as Midland - so possibly not the original GN line to the GE station - but the end-on junction south of the GN station is marked "GN & L&NW Junction"; Nene Junction is "GN & GE Junction" and finally there is "GE & Mid Junction" - so there must be some additional complexities of ownership...

 

Edited by Compound2632
Comment on GN - GE junctions.
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Here's a rather good 1902 photo of a M&GN train at Westwood junction, crossing from the Midland to the Great Northern lines on its approach to the Great Northern station. There are a great many interesting photos on this website.

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This is where they are working.

image.png.b598dc87ce0e75a12fab6048b951e005.png

 

The dive under is to avoid trains to Spalding having to cross the ECML.

 

I've asked fellow CRA member Jim Summers and he knows the area well from his early days with BR, but he has never seen anything like it, but suggests it may mark the boundary of a surfaceman's length or some such..  He has directed me to the GNR society and I've sent them a message, but unfortunately I couldn't see any way to send the photo.  Perhaps I will be able to when they reply.

 

Thanks for the suggestions and the insight into the complex history of the area.

 

Jim

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On 31/07/2019 at 02:43, Caley Jim said:

My son is currently working for Morgan Sindal on the contract to make a dive-under on the Stamford lines at 79m 15ch at Werrington/Dukesmead.  They have just dug this up while digging a trial hole.

 

IMG-20190730-WA0000.jpg.a9b4cd38777c4500e3c25ac965ded145.jpg

 

Can anyone identify what it is?  the plate is painted blue and the post white and there are no cast letters or holes on the plate.

 

Jim

M&GNJR?  I'm sure I've seen something like that before, but I can't remember where.

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10 hours ago, Annie said:

M&GNJR?  I'm sure I've seen something like that before, but I can't remember where.

Hi Annie. I've posted this in several other places (including having it put on the GNRS forum), but with no success, so you're the only one who's responded! My own feeling is that it is probably not that early because it is fabricated rather than cast iron. My son tells me it's now in the scrap metal skip! 

 

Jim 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Hi all,

I hope this would be permitted as the place to ask this question,  as it doesn’t really seem right to create a thread for it.

 

A couple of questions, if I may, for those of you knowledgable on the Midland Railway, prior to the grouping. Was there anywhere on the Midland system that had an island platform arrangement for an intermediate station (ie Great Central kind of style) where the station buildings were on the road above and just one platform with running lines either side, or for the Midland would it always have been separate platforms for each direction? If the latter what happened about recess roads for freight, would they have been beyond/before the station or round the back of the platforms?

 

I know there were issues and dislikes for facing points, but did the MR ever employ goods loops, or would they always have been recess sidings that were backed in to?

 

Finally, can anyone enlighten me (or point me in the right direction) with regards to the approach track layouts for arriving and departing services at exchange sidings or small yards?

 

I have been reading a a couple of the superb Midland Record journals just lately and it is providing some food for thought with regards to a layout.

 

Any help/pointers would be appreciated.

 

Richie

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11 minutes ago, Richie Kynaston said:

Was there anywhere on the Midland system that had an island platform arrangement for an intermediate station (ie Great Central kind of style) where the station buildings were on the road above and just one platform with running lines either side

 

Water Orton, I believe.

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There were plenty of instances of facing connections from the main line onto goods lines at the approaches to major goods stations or marshalling yards but in general, out in the country, lay-by sidings were the usual arrangement. Even where there were separate goods or relief lines, facing connections to the passenger or main lines were few and far between. The tell-tale is in the signalbox name - if there was a facing connection, a signalbox would be dignified with the name "Junction". An example was Sharnbrook Station Junction - a wayside station on the four track section of the Midland main line. There was a facing connection from the up goods to the up passenger line, justifying the title "Junction" but none from the down goods to down passenger line. This was a major contributing cause to a most destructive accident there in 1909, which I recently wrote up:

Bob Essery describes the working of the Kingsbury branch in the 1950s in one of those Midland Records. This was a layout which had not much changed from Midland days. To access the branch, a train on the up line had to set back onto either the down line or into the reception line for the exchange sidings - I forget which is described - before drawing forward onto the branch. This was quite a common arrangement, even for branches with a passenger service. Hawes Junction is an example - no facing connection from the main lines onto the branch, so the Hellifield-Hawes passenger train had to set back into the branch platform.

 

Water Orton is rather untypical, being a product of the widening associated with the construction of the Whitacre avoiding line. Midland wayside stations are very uniform in layout - getting that right is, to my mind, crucial in creating a model that shouts "Midland".

 

 

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3 hours ago, James Harrison said:

 

Water Orton, I believe.

 

Ah I hadn’t given a thought to Water Orton. Thanks

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There were plenty of instances of facing connections from the main line onto goods lines at the approaches to major goods stations or marshalling yards but in general, out in the country, lay-by sidings were the usual arrangement. Even where there were separate goods or relief lines, facing connections to the passenger or main lines were few and far between. The tell-tale is in the signalbox name - if there was a facing connection, a signalbox would be dignified with the name "Junction". An example was Sharnbrook Station Junction - a wayside station on the four track section of the Midland main line. There was a facing connection from the up goods to the up passenger line, justifying the title "Junction" but none from the down goods to down passenger line. This was a major contributing cause to a most destructive accident there in 1909, which I recently wrote up:

Bob Essery describes the working of the Kingsbury branch in the 1950s in one of those Midland Records. This was a layout which had not much changed from Midland days. To access the branch, a train on the up line had to set back onto either the down line or into the reception line for the exchange sidings - I forget which is described - before drawing forward onto the branch. This was quite a common arrangement, even for branches with a passenger service. Hawes Junction is an example - no facing connection from the main lines onto the branch, so the Hellifield-Hawes passenger train had to set back into the branch platform.

 

Water Orton is rather untypical, being a product of the widening associated with the construction of the Whitacre avoiding line. Midland wayside stations are very uniform in layout - getting that right is, to my mind, crucial in creating a model that shouts "Midland".

 

I don’t want to clog this thread up, but thanks for taking the time to reply. I could start a new thread for the initial design that I am working on, I guess. I am keen to have a go at something pre-grouping but wanted to bring in a main line feel and station to what will really be a goods area shunting layout, with several ideas borrowed from Lawley Street Goods in Birmingham and Nottingham’s Goods, but I do want to do my best to get the Midland feel to things.

 

I liked your write up on the Sharnbrook accident. Very interesting.

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1 hour ago, Richie Kynaston said:

 

wanted to bring in a main line feel and station to what will really be a goods area shunting layout, with several ideas borrowed from Lawley Street Goods in Birmingham and Nottingham’s Goods, but I do want to do my best to get the Midland feel to things.

 

 

Are you looking on the National Library of Scotland maps website? The 25" inch maps can be inspiring. On the left of this sheet, a favourite goods station of mine, Birmingham Central, complete with very handy scenic break. Plus plenty of photos on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways website, such as this one, if you want to go late 19th century, or this if you prefer eve of grouping.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Are you looking on the National Library of Scotland maps website? The 25" inch maps can be inspiring. On the left of this sheet, a favourite goods station of mine, Birmingham Central, complete with very handy scenic break. Plus plenty of photos on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways website, such as this one, if you want to go late 19th century, or this if you prefer eve of grouping.

 

Thanks yes - the Warwickshire Railways website has provided much inspiration!  Both of those shots you have linked to are superb.  The history shown in them, along with the information that can be gleened from how the goods depot worked is brilliant.  Thanks for the NLoS link, I never seem to be able to find away into those maps unless i follow a link to another one and then navigate around!

 

Richie 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 07/09/2019 at 15:18, Richie Kynaston said:

Hi all,

I hope this would be permitted as the place to ask this question,  as it doesn’t really seem right to create a thread for it.

 

A couple of questions, if I may, for those of you knowledgable on the Midland Railway, prior to the grouping. Was there anywhere on the Midland system that had an island platform arrangement for an intermediate station (ie Great Central kind of style) where the station buildings were on the road above and just one platform with running lines either side, or for the Midland would it always have been separate platforms for each direction? If the latter what happened about recess roads for freight, would they have been beyond/before the station or round the back of the platforms?

 

 

 

I have been reading a a couple of the superb Midland Record journals just lately and it is providing some food for thought with regards to a layout.

 

Any help/pointers would be appreciated.

 

Richie

Burton-on- Trent?

Edited by Phil Traxson
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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not sure I would describe Burton-on-Trent as intermediate. Admit Burton and we'll be looking at Leicester and Nottingham.

Leicester and Nottingham had more platform faces than Burton, Burton had one island platform with bays at either end.

  

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4 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

Leicester and Nottingham had more platform faces than Burton, Burton had one island platform with bays at either end.

  

 

True, I had forgotten that Richie's question specified a single island platform. I'd remembered he'd said access from building on overbridge, which Leicester and Nottingham had, so didn't mention Normanton, Trent, or Hellifield.

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  • 1 month later...

The "Blackberry Black" hue has been attributed to the use of oily rags to polish the locos after cleaning, leaving a surface sheen which gave the purple effect.

 

The actual paint was "drop black",with a red oxide undercoat and several layers of varnish IIRC (full details can be found in "LNWR Liveries"  from the HMRS, a must for any LNWR enthusiast).

Edited by Jol Wilkinson
typo
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36 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The actual paint was "drop black",with a red oxide undercoat and several layers of varnish IIRC (full details can be found in "LNWR Liveries"  from the HMRC, a must for any LNWR enthusiast).

 

I didn't know The Revenue published railway books...

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