Pre Grouping general discussion

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, colin smith said:

The particular bit of Cambrian that interests me is the Aberdovey harbour branch which, in my reimagining, would also have been the terminus of the 2'3" gauge Talyllyn Railway* but it really can't be done without one or two Cambrian locos.

 

Then I think you're probably stumped. One approach might be to make do with running stock from a later period - isn't the Bachmann Dukedog spot on for the Cambrian Coast line? Plus the various Dean Goods?

[ChrisN]

27 minutes ago, colin smith said:

 

For you, no doubt. I was a professional architectural modeller for twelve years and a picture framer for several more years so I'm not averse to making things, but the engineering aspect of model railways doesn't interest me and I'd rather put the energy into the creative and imaginative aspects. Also, life is too short to acquire the skills needed to produce the relatively few items I would want to a standard I would accept.

 

The particular bit of Cambrian that interests me is the Aberdovey harbour branch which, in my reimagining, would also have been the terminus of the 2'3" gauge Talyllyn Railway* but it really can't be done without one or two Cambrian locos.

*The initial proposal for the Talyllyn was for a line from the slate quarries at Abergynolwyn to Aberdovey but once the standard gauge reached Towyn they decided to build an interchange with the Cambrian. Much of the slate went via the Cambrian to the harbour at Aberdovey.

 

Colin,

What a brilliant idea.  Narrow gauge is easier, but is also all kits, (for the Talyllyn anyway, but, yay, there are R-T-R chassis for the locos.  (Are you a member of the 009 Society?)  I once had a good look at redoing a Dean Goods into a Jones Goods, the Cambrian one not the Scottish one, and it is fairly doable.  I did not do it once I twigged that they are about 8 years after my time period.

 

I have been trying to build coaches through various techniques and still have lots to do.  I have lots of wagon kits to do as well.  All this has stopped as I have been told rather pointedly that I have enough coaches and my grandchildren would appreciate my layout more if there was some scenery.  Locos were/ are going to happen when everything else is done as they seem the most difficult.

 

If you start a layout, put it in 'The Railways of Wales', as you will attract the few of us that model Welsh Pre-Grouping.  Mention GWR, or build a GWR coach and GWR fans will turn up as well.  Failing that put it in Pre-Grouping.

 

My motive power, is all the wrong sort but it will do until I eventually make my own. 

[colin smith]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Then I think you're probably stumped. One approach might be to make do with running stock from a later period - isn't the Bachmann Dukedog spot on for the Cambrian Coast line? Plus the various Dean Goods?

 

A Dukedog could work for a late 1930s layout but by then the slate quarries at Abergynolwyn were long past their best. I have noted that Camkits do OO kits for the Cambrian small and large goods 0-6-0s, which is pretty much all the idea would need, along with open wagons and cattle wagons.

That said, O gauge would be better as the Talyllyn is much better provided for in O.16.5.  

[colin smith]

9 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Colin,

What a brilliant idea.  Narrow gauge is easier, but is also all kits, (for the Talyllyn anyway, but, yay, there are R-T-R chassis for the locos.  (Are you a member of the 009 Society?)  I once had a good look at redoing a Dean Goods into a Jones Goods, the Cambrian one not the Scottish one, and it is fairly doable.  I did not do it once I twigged that they are about 8 years after my time period.

 

I have been trying to build coaches through various techniques and still have lots to do.  I have lots of wagon kits to do as well.  All this has stopped as I have been told rather pointedly that I have enough coaches and my grandchildren would appreciate my layout more if there was some scenery.  Locos were/ are going to happen when everything else is done as they seem the most difficult.

 

If you start a layout, put it in 'The Railways of Wales', as you will attract the few of us that model Welsh Pre-Grouping.  Mention GWR, or build a GWR coach and GWR fans will turn up as well.  Failing that put it in Pre-Grouping.

 

My motive power, is all the wrong sort but it will do until I eventually make my own. 

 

Unfortunately, I'm some way from  starting as my bedsit doesn't have room. This is an idea for the future. But having been a OO9 modeller many years ago I have to dispute that it's easier, not least because all the tricky mechanical bits are that much smaller! 

 

Tbh, if I had any children/grandchildren, I would have kept them outside the railway door.

I do have a plan for what I want to build when the time is right. Standard gauge in black, narrow-gauge in grey. Cambrian coast line overbridge bottom right.  Road along the bottom. Coal store served by narrow and standard gauge on the right. Talyllyn platform bottom left with passenger shelter. Talyllyn Railway office far left. Cambrian sidings and the foreshore beyond with the sea on the backscene. Cassette fiddlesticks to left and right. 

[Compound2632]

Railway modelling has to be the art of the possible, otherwise it merely leads to frustration. Many years ago I dabbled in P4 but despite the very great attraction of the finer standard - above all, the look of the trackwork - I came to the conclusion that there were too many things to get right at once before I had anything running (as a lone wolf). If at that point I'd found a club with a P4 layout and mentors to guide me, it might have been different. That's why I suggested starting with the later period, if you want to get a layout going. On the other hand, if the opportunity to build a layout is still some way off, now is the chance to get your teeth into kit building appropriate stock - start maybe with a few wagons, then work your way up to those locomotives. (Buy the kits now else they'll not be available when you want them.)

[Gareth Collier]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A significant part of the appeal of pre-grouping modelling is that it is modelling. 

 

That said, I'm not averse to making use of an appropriate piece of RTR if it appears - but it's a luxury rather than a necessity.

This why my modelling is primarily the SECR in N gauge. Plenty of scratch and kit building which is my main area of interest. Who could have predicted that a few, short years later there would be 3 RTR locos in SECR livery and a Birdcage set. Although very welcome I kind of feel cheated as my layout is no longer relatively unique 

At least my kit built C Class is in full Wainwright livery and none of my dozen or so etched coaches are of the same diagram as the Farish ones  

[whart57]

27 minutes ago, Gareth Collier said:

This why my modelling is primarily the SECR in N gauge. Plenty of scratch and kit building which is my main area of interest. Who could have predicted that a few, short years later there would be 3 RTR locos in SECR livery and a Birdcage set. Although very welcome I kind of feel cheated as my layout is no longer relatively unique 

At least my kit built C Class is in full Wainwright livery and none of my dozen or so etched coaches are of the same diagram as the Farish ones  

 

That's why I went to 3mm scale some 40 years ago. And I've moved on from SE&CR modelling before any mainstream manufacture tumbled in

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Railway modelling has to be the art of the possible, otherwise it merely leads to frustration. Many years ago I dabbled in P4 but despite the very great attraction of the finer standard - above all, the look of the trackwork - I came to the conclusion that there were too many things to get right at once before I had anything running (as a lone wolf). If at that point I'd found a club with a P4 layout and mentors to guide me, it might have been different. That's why I suggested starting with the later period, if you want to get a layout going. On the other hand, if the opportunity to build a layout is still some way off, now is the chance to get your teeth into kit building appropriate stock - start maybe with a few wagons, then work your way up to those locomotives. (Buy the kits now else they'll not be available when you want them.)

I found that moving to P4 from OO made it possible to improve my modelling considerably. Firstly a set of published standards, readily available jigs, tools and components to build trackwork and models guided me in the right direction. Joining the S4 society and a local Area Group brought me into contact with modellers who were happy to share their knowledge and experience. 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Joining the S4 society and a local Area Group brought me into contact with modellers who were happy to share their knowledge and experience. 

 

That's what wasn't really an option at the time.

[Lacathedrale]

I feel like I should know this, but I don't - I'd like to build some LCDR and SER structures; difficulty in finding extant prototypes aside - I realise I don't know what colour scheme they would have painted their infrastructure in. This site suggests a lack of conensus with two tone white, cream, buff or stone against a purple-brown, brown or indian red - https://www.stationcolours.info/southern-railway/  - is there anything more conclusive out there?

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I feel like I should know this, but I don't - I'd like to build some LCDR and SER structures; difficulty in finding extant prototypes aside - I realise I don't know what colour scheme they would have painted their infrastructure in. This site suggests a lack of conensus with two tone white, cream, buff or stone against a purple-brown, brown or indian red - https://www.stationcolours.info/southern-railway/  - is there anything more conclusive out there?

 

You could direct your enquiry to the SECR Society?

https://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/

[Edwardian]

See also 

 

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Lovely! I am a member of the SECR Society, that's a good shout. Thank you for the pictures too - I think aged white and an indian red or purple-brown would be very distinctive and contrast well with the black and older holly green locomotives. Thank you.

 

[Tom Burnham]

There's a tinted postcard of Sidcup station that seems to show it mainly buffs and off-white (light stone?) with canopy supports, lamp posts and platform seats in a light brown.  Don't know how reliable that would be, though.
https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/sidcup-railway-station-correspondence-and-stamp-on-reverse-of-postcard/MEV-11943209

[Chas Levin]

Very enjoyable thread, only just discovered it, very interesting and informative, bookmarked immediately! 🙂

[Lacathedrale]

I'm going to have a spare few G.W.R. transfers that it makes sense to use up. However, my time period is pre-1900, and it's not clear to me what (widely available) kits are likely to be suitable.

 

So far I've come up with two vans:

• GWR Iron Mink 'A': Peco PC563 -  replace axleboxes with grease and one brake lever, paint in Red livery. Already done this one!

• GWR Cattle Van W1 Coopercraft W1/W5: slot ends and r/h sides to reflect pre-1902 style of W1 ?

Are there any readily available kits for 2- and 3- plank wagons? David Geen's wagons have dropped off the face of the earth, and I'm not sure what else is knocking around!

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I'm going to have a spare few G.W.R. transfers that it makes sense to use up. However, my time period is pre-1900, and it's not clear to me what (widely available) kits are likely to be suitable.

 

So far I've come up with two vans:

• GWR Iron Mink 'A': Peco PC563 -  replace axleboxes with grease and one brake lever, paint in Red livery. Already done this one!

• GWR Cattle Van W1 Coopercraft W1/W5: slot ends and r/h sides to reflect pre-1902 style of W1 ?

Are there any readily available kits for 2- and 3- plank wagons? David Geen's wagons have dropped off the face of the earth, and I'm not sure what else is knocking around!

 

Keep an eye on Ebay - the 4-plank wagon comes up reasonably frequently and that's the core vehicle for a late 19th century GW wagon fleet.

 

The Oxford AA3 brake is good too - if you get the early non-plated version.

[Lacathedrale]

The 4 Plank Wagon = David Geen Models? Is it known by any other moniker? No need for a brake I'm afraid, I'm in a Wealden setting!

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

The 4 Plank Wagon = David Geen Models? Is it known by any other moniker? No need for a brake I'm afraid, I'm in a Wealden setting!

 

Sorry, I meant the Coopercraft kit, ref. 1004. Plus of course now the Rapido RTR model.

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

David Geen's wagons have dropped off the face of the earth

More's the pity, very useful little wagons.

 

D&S DS503 GWR Cattle Wagon W2, if you can find one (if you find two, let me know!)

[Miss Prism]

Don't forget Rapido's 4-planker

[Edwardian]

It rather depends on whether one accepts that the G.W.R lettered livery was ever in grey. It might well have been, but we cannot know, leaving each modeller to make their own mind up. I'm increasingly tending to the view that the cast-plate era as the likeliest period for the advent of grey, though there is no decisive evidence, it's a case of one's best guess.   

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

It rather depends on whether one accepts that the G.W.R lettered livery was ever in grey. It might well have been, but we cannot know, leaving each modeller to make their own mind up. I'm increasingly tending to the view that the cast-plate era as the likeliest period for the advent of grey, though there is no decisive evidence, it's a case of one's best guess.   

 

Re-opening old wounds, the difficulty I have with the idea that grey came in with cast plates is that cast plates were only applied to new-built wagons, as far as I can tell.

 

But the thrust of the current discussion is that it is better to have kits and RTR models of wagons of this period than not! Colour is a secondary consideration - repainting a RTR model wagon is a good deal less challenging than repainting a carriage or locomotive model. 

 

Whichever choice the modeller makes, the key is to be consistent and not mix red and grey versions of the same lettering style. (Though that has been done, provocatively...)

Edited June 17, 2022 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...and not mix red and grey versions of the same lettering style.

 

Phew, thought I was in trouble for a minute!

Edited June 17, 2022 by Schooner
Emphasis emboldened

[Edwardian]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Re-opening old wounds, the difficulty I have with the idea that grey came in with cast plates is that cast plates were only applied to new-built wagons, as far as I can tell.

 

But the thrust of the current discussion is that it is better to have kits and RTR models of wagons of this period than not! Colour is a secondary consideration - repainting a RTR model wagon is a good deal less challenging than repainting a carriage or locomotive model. 

 

Whichever choice the modeller makes, the key is to be consistent and not mix red and grey versions of the same lettering style. (Though that has been done, provocatively...)

 

There are no wounds. We do not know the answer, so no one should be prescriptive or insist on their point of view. I advocate simply the desirability of keeping in mind that we do not know the answer. Modellers must make individual choices, but must respect the different choices that are equally legitimate.

 

I cannot see the difficulty of applying grey on new-built cast plate wagons.

 

Mikkel's 'hybrid' livery is based on the idea that the Mink in quo was not repainted after the removal of the cast GWR plate. He is quite correct that the photograph of the prototype appears to show this. If, therefore, you choose to believe the cast-plate livery in this instance was red, you get a transitional livery with the 25" G W on a red wagon.

 

If, on the other hand, you choose to believe that the cast-plate livery in this instance was grey, there is a hybrid, because it still features 1904 25" initials with a cast number plate, but the livery has remained grey. 

 

Given the choices I have made, I would model that same wagon in grey.  Both options appear equally valid, however, based on the available evidence.

 

My other choice is to have red under frames on red wagons. Again, there is no evidence to favour decisively this approach or the alternatives to it.