Pre Grouping general discussion

[Lacathedrale]

Hello all,

 

 

 

I'm looking to set a layout in the SE&CR in roughly 1913. It's a pretty faithful depiction of Caterham. I would appreciate any comment or advice on anything noted below, questions following

 

Rolling Stock - Locos

Locomotives based out of the Purley Shed in the pre-war Period (and thus fairly likely to have run on the Caterham branch) were:

• ex-LCDR Kirtley M1-class (2) and M2-class (1) 4-4-0 semi-fast passenger loco (being replaced by the H's and Q1's in my time period)

• ex-SER Stirling Q-class 0-4-4T (3) / rebuilt SECR Q1-class (2)

• ex-SER Stirling 0-6-0 O-class for freight (3)

• Wainwright H-class 0-4-4T (6)

Photographic evidence at Caterham shows:

• Wainwright L-class 4-4-0 express passenger loco

• Rebuilt SECR O1-class 0-6-0 for freight, particularly clean and tidy

• Rebuilt SECR F1-class 4-4-0 express in Royal Train accoutremont

 

I specifically want to avoid the plain green/yellow and grey/white war era paint schemes - so should I gather that the passenger locos would be in the holly green and red - but I can't seem to find any examples of the 'wainwright goods livery' which SEMG notes is 'dark green and lined' but nothing else - the same as his passenger livery? I gather it would be fairly unlikely for any LCDR or SER paint schemes to have survived the 15 years after the merger, but I also know the SE&CR was particularly spendthrift on its local services compared to the boat trains. Any thoughts?

 

Rolling Stock - Coaches

The book 'The Caterham Railway' notes that all stock running on the Caterham branch was ex SE&CR stock, even electric multiple unit conversions. What would this have been? 50' birdcages? Six wheeled stock? I gather they are in Madder Lake, i.e. darker than LMS crimson before the war?

 

Rolling Stock - Freight

The station had a large guards depot up the hill, which the aforementioned 'The Caterham Railway' book mentions night trains of war material but doesn't elaborate - what would this be? Similarly, a preceding station was the main railway station for the Kenley Aerodrome - what would that have looked like? I imagine a trip working from the mainline to Caterham, and then a local working backwards.

 

There was also a large 'electric light works' nearby, not rail served but I gather probably an important freight customer. what kind of freight would it be getting?

 

Bulidings - Signals

Would this signal box and gantry at the end of the platform be an SR/BR erection, or an original SECR design? The station was rebuilt in 1905 so can't predate that: https://picclick.co.uk/Caterham-Railway-Station-Photo-Warlingham-Whyteleafe-and-Kenley-252484582364.html#&gid=1&pid=1

[Gareth Collier]

Seeing your posts in the 2mm section I'm guessing the above relates to 2mm rather than 'OO'?

Most locos will need scratch building although Worsley Works do an etch for the 'O', NBrass for the 'L' and an 'H' can be made from a modified Dapol M7. Tom (Turbosnail) has just sorted a 3D rendering of an F1 and I am currently test building it http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134891-turbosnails-workbench-ser-ff1-class-neilson-2-2-2t-manning-wardle-0-4-0st/page-10 .

I would highly recommend joining the SECR society http://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/ as there everything can be answered!

[Lacathedrale]

Seeing your posts in the 2mm section I'm guessing the above relates to 2mm rather than 'OO'?

Most locos will need scratch building although Worsley Works do an etch for the 'O', NBrass for the 'L' and an 'H' can be made from a modified Dapol M7. Tom (Turbosnail) has just sorted a 3D rendering of an F1 and I am currently test building it http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134891-turbosnails-workbench-ser-ff1-class-neilson-2-2-2t-manning-wardle-0-4-0st/page-10 .

I would highly recommend joining the SECR society http://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/ as there everything can be answered!

 

Hi Gareth, you would be correct - I'm primarily looking to manifest this in a 2FS model so your post is very timely My experience with scratchbuilding and modifying is limited to larger scales so far, but I'm hopeful that it will translate broadly to 2mm! That F looks great

 

I don't mind joining the SECR society but I think (for now) that my questions are pretty much those above - does the group facilitate this kind of Q&A? I guess I'd also be after engineering drawings of the above mentioned locos - is that something the society has?

 

All the very best,

[Guy Rixon]

1913 was the year that Harry Wainwright retired and Mr. Maunsell took over. The grey livery was a Maunsell innovation, so out of period for 1913. How flexible is your period?

 

When the SECR was formed, Mr. Wainwright had all the engines, goods or passenger painted in the full, lined livery. Later on, when the SECR board sought economies in painting, Mr. Wainwright reported that he was already painting the goods engines in a plainer livery, but wished to keep the full livery on the passenger engines as an incentive to the men to maintain their engines. The goods-engine livery is what Bachmann produced for their main run of "SECR liveried" C-class. The base colour is the same green as the full livery, but the dome is painted over green and the lining is very simple. I would guess that perhaps half the goods engines might have been repainted in the simple livery by 1913.

 

I would be amazed if any SER or LCDR retained its pre-merger livery in 1913.

 

SECR coaches were painted in SER "purple lake" until c.1912 according to Gould. After that, they changed to a brighter, redder shade and later still (can't remember the date but probably after 1913) to an overall brown which may have been the undercoat for the purple lake with clear varnish instead of a "lake" finish. The exact colour of the purple lake has been debated without proper consensus, but was probably bluer than Midland or GWR lake. I simulate SECR purple lake with a 50-50 mix of Precision SECR "coach maroon" and "indian red". Their "coach maroon" isn't right: it's too blue and very dull, even when lined out. My mix is a reasonable match both to the SECR lake on Bachmann's coaches and to the colour on some preserved LCDR coaches at the Bluebell Railway.

 

I don't know what coaches served Caterham in 1913. Do you have copies of David Gould's books on SECR coaches? They have some allocation information dotted around in the technical details. I note that your period is just late enough to run the 3-coach sets of 60' coaches  as well as the trio-A sets of shorter coaches. 1913 is too late for railmotors but push-pull fitted trains are a possibility.

[Gareth Collier]

Through the members section of the SECR society website there are numerous loco plans and a Q&A facility and I've not stumped them yet!

 

Loco liveries - full lining for everything although for goods engines Wainwright did start painting domes green and simplified the lining when pressurised by his bosses. You mention the O and O1 for freight and up until the outbreak of war I've yet to find a photo showing they were anything but fully lined although old photos aren't always that clear. The odd L carried simplified lined green but soon ended up grey.

 

Coaches - covered by Guy but I've no idea what the electric multiple unit conversions referred to are.

[Guy Rixon]

In the back of Gould, Carriage Stock of the SE&CR, there's a list of train sets as made up and allocated in 1922. It has a note that most of the sets were made up in 1914-1915. Under Caterham we have the following.

 

- Set 281: 8 close-coupled 4-wheeled coaches (converted from 6-wheeled).

 

- Sets 45-52: three 6-wheel coaches and a bogie 1st/second composite, formed TB-S-FS-TB. The 6-wheeled coaches were ex-SER, the brakes having arc roofs and the seconds elliptical roofs. At least one of the bogie composites was an early-SECR 44' coach.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[Lacathedrale]

^^ EDIT: Thank you Gary - would the company really have converted six wheelers to four wheelers?!

 

My time period has a hard stop at 1925 (since that's when the line was electrified) and I'm not a fan at all of the wartime green/grey, and the L's were introduced in 1914 (in plain green with black boiler bands and white lining??), so that's basically where I'm aiming - the eve of war, but not yet broken out.

 

The loco stock is hashing out to roughly be as follows:

 

- Q1 class no. 363 would have been rebuilt fresh in 1914 so nice and shiney, probably a nice contrast

- Q class no. 346 which would have been a quarter century old by the outbreak of war, or no. 424 (pictured in 1913 in 'The Caterham Railway' book portraited with driver, fireman and guard!)

- O1 class no. 389 built 1907 with a boiler from an M1 or M2-class

- F1 class no .156 built 1893 and rebuilt 1906 and without the front plate wings but with the original smokebox

- L class no. 777 built JUNE 1914! - the picture I've got even states that it was likely a 'running in' job that took this prestigious engine to Caterham to be snapped on the turntable, but I'll take it.

- H class no. 540 (the first of the class) or 162 (built closest to the layout date, 1909)

- M1 class no 635 (the only Purley-based M*-class to survive the scrapper in 1914)

 

Thank you all for the advice on the liveries, I didn't twig it at first, but the difference seems to be the goods locos had painted domes and none of the red additional lining? Is the Bachmann C-class (here: https://www.hattons.co.uk/192988/Bachmann_Branchline_31_463_LN01_Class_C_Wainwright_0_6_0_271_in_SECR_plain_green_Pre_owned_Like_new/StockDetail.aspx)and the C-class-as-at-Bluebell a valid comparison? (https://www.hattons.co.uk/38434/Bachmann_Branchline_31_460_Class_C_Wainwright_0_6_0_592_in_SE_CR_lined_green_As_preserved_at_the_Bluebell_R/StockDetail.aspx) - Reading between the lines though, it seems as though only the C-class would have been an eligible interloper on the branch to replace the O and O1 workings, which would have carried this livery?

 

Referring to my book 'SE&CR Locomotives' by F. Burtt it does have some rather nice side-on shots. I guess I've got to learn how to do scale drawings from this, then On those lines, I have ordered the books from David Gould on Coaches, and Bixley on Wagons.I have also joined the society

Edited October 9, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

^^ EDIT: Thank you Gary - would the company really have converted six wheelers to four wheelers?!

 

Of course not. The authors of the book made it up, and no one has noticed until now!

 

Alternatively, yes and why not?

Much cheaper than scrapping six wheel coaches which have been withdrawn from mainline use, and then building brand new 4 wheel coaches for slower speed suburban services.

Take out the middle set of wheels, springs and axle guards. Maybe add some trussing in their place to keep the strength up, fit new shortened buffers and couplings for close-coupled working (except at guard end of brake thirds).

Have a look at the LCDR coaches at the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, about half way down the page. You can even see the small strengthening truss used after the centre wheels were removed.

https://www.iwsteamrailway.co.uk/4-wheeled-carriages.aspx

[Edwardian]

As you have spotted, the L Class was introduced in 1914.  It would have been out-shopped in simplified Wainwright green, like the preceding J Class tanks.  As Guy says, Maunsell did not change liveries until the War; IIRC the plain grey was introduced in 1915, so you can avoid that entirely should you wish.

 

Your reference to the green/yellow livery was also to wartime, so I assume you mean that as, for example, carried by the latest Hattons Ps? 

 

This leaves you with two liveries: (1) the very elaborate livery introduced by Wainwright for the joint committee, which I tend to call "the Full Wainwright", and (2) the much later simplified livery, also green, but simply lined in yellow and with painted domes.  I tend to call this "the Simplified Wainwright".

 

So, 1913, Full, Simplified or both?

 

I am going to suggest both. 

 

Why?  Well, as early as 1910 Wainwright said, in the face of a critical Locomotive Committee calling for economies, that he had already started painting locomotives in a simplified livery.  The SE&CR policy was, I believe, to repaint every 3 years, so it follows that the Full  Wainwright livery would have been well on the way out by 1913.

 

Trouble is, I don't believe what Wainwright told the Committee!  I can see no evidence of it applied this early.  The Ps got their domes painted, apparently, as crews complained of the glare, but that is not the same as going over to a simplified livery from 1910.

 

As far as the D class is concerned, and I spent quite a bit of time pondering these over the summer, I don't recall seeing any of the class members in the Simplified Wainwright green that had not been fitted with the short, cast, capuchon chimney.  These were fitted as the class members passed through the works from March 1911.  

 

So I don't think the new livery can have got into its stride much before then.

[Lacathedrale]

I think the locos I've chosen would all have seen work at Purley, the fact the L and O1 were seen there does obviously mean that power came from elsewhere - either Stewarts Lane and Bricklayers Arms (the former, certainly) - would there have been any other typical locos on the line around this time?

 

So, 1913, Full, Simplified or both?

 

I am going to suggest both.

 

Thanks Edwardian, I think the ability for me to run both will be helpful to visually differentiate say, a later H from a Q, and the L from an M1 - I appreciate up close they might look the different but variety is the spice of life especially at a bit of a distance. Also I can practise on the simplified Wainwright first  

 

Of course not. The authors of the book made it up, and no one has noticed until now!

 

That was some hyperbole from me - I was under the impression that four wheeled carriages were extremely out of vogue by the time period we're talking so it just seems strange that the railway would rebuild them - given that the electric stock coming in 1925 was built out of the same carriages but cut and shut together? Obviously I do need to read up so have (as mentioned) bought the SECR Carriage book and membership to the society. Just musing out loud on this one really

[Guy Rixon]

So, 1913, Full, Simplified or both?

 

I am going to suggest both. 

 

Why?  Well, as early as 1910 Wainwright said, in the face of a critical Locomotive Committee calling for economies, that he had already started painting locomotives in a simplified livery.  The SE&CR policy was, I believe, to repaint every 3 years, so it follows that the Full  Wainwright livery would have been well on the way out by 1913.

 

Trouble is, I don't believe what Wainwright told the Committee!  I can see no evidence of it applied this early.  The Ps got their domes painted, apparently, as crews complained of the glare, but that is not the same as going over to a simplified livery from 1910.

 

As far as the D class is concerned, and I spent quite a bit of time pondering these over the summer, I don't recall seeing any of the class members in the Simplified Wainwright green that had not been fitted with the short, cast, capuchon chimney.  These were fitted as the class members passed through the works from March 1911.  

 

So I don't think the new livery can have got into its stride much before then.

 

Yes, definitely both. Apart from the photographic evidence, the important detail is that the Committee apparently accepted, in 1910, Mr. Wainwright's argument for keeping full livery on the passenger engines. I get this from Klaus Marx' account of the event, in Wainwright and his Engines; I haven't seen the committee minutes. 

[Regularity]

That was some hyperbole from me

For clarity, I was joining in with the joke - otherwise, why would I have then gone to the trouble of finding a link to illustrate what they did?

[Gareth Collier]

 

My time period has a hard stop at 1925 (since that's when the line was electrified) and I'm not a fan at all of the wartime green/grey, and the L's were introduced in 1914 (in plain green with black boiler bands and white lining??), so that's basically where I'm aiming - the eve of war, but not yet broken out.

 

Thank you all for the advice on the liveries, I didn't twig it at first, but the difference seems to be the goods locos had painted domes and none of the red additional lining? Reading between the lines though, it seems as though only the C-class would have been an eligible interloper on the branch to replace the O and O1 workings, which would have carried this livery?

 

 

 

If you are going to have a hard stop at 1925 you will have a lot of grey locos! Post WW1 every one was pretty much grey and stayed that way until grouping. The L's were introduced in 1914 but never in plain green with black boiler bands and white lining. That was Maunsell's first livery after grouping, not SECR. I've seen photographic evidence of L's in simplified green so yellow lining but most were grey until Southern days.

It wasn't just goods engines that that had their domes painted green, passenger locos did too eventually whilst goods locos also had the full lining. The red and light green lining went at the same time leaving only the yellow.

Basically up to WW1 everything was ornate then very rapidly lining was simplified and domes painted and then by the end of WW1 everything was grey.

[Lacathedrale]

So while I wait for my SECR society information and books to arrive by hook or crook, I wonder if it might be OK to talk about the more general pre-grouping type concerns?

 

Attached is a shot of the road outside the station - it must be post 1905 since that's when the line was double-tracked and the station rebuilt to the form you see before you. The low wall is the end of the goods yard, but I can't quite make out if it's turning into cobblestones, or just a different kind of gravel/dirt surface. Infact, I don't even know what the road surface would be at this point?

 

i can't find anything at all of the surrounding area, would the line be fenced and gated in the way we would expect in the modern era? (speaking of the goods yard and as the line heads into the country)

 

Speaking of dividers, would the parcels of land on OS grids typically be fenced one way or another, or are they ownership demarcations?

 

What would pre-war military traffic look like, to a guards barracks? What about to an aerodrome? I'm sure I can get away with some plain old covered general merchandise wagons but that seems a shame!

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[IWCR]

There were a lot of 4 wheelers in use on suburban services and many of these were ex mainline 6 wheelers with the middle wheelset removed.  Most of these were ex LCDR which were well built teak vehicles, SER four wheelers seem to have been of poorer standard and not favoured for rebuilding.  It was from the mid 1920s  onwards that they started to become uncommon,  As electrification spread  the newer stock displaced  was cascaded onto the lower tier lines clearing out the remaining 4 wheelers, a considerable number then moving to the Isle of Wight.  These themselves were then replaced within 10 years or so by the early bogie carriages which by then were following the same procedure.

 

Pete

[Guy Rixon]

So while I wait for my SECR society information and books to arrive by hook or crook, I wonder if it might be OK to talk about the more general pre-grouping type concerns?

 

Attached is a shot of the road outside the station - it must be post 1905 since that's when the line was double-tracked and the station rebuilt to the form you see before you. The low wall is the end of the goods yard, but I can't quite make out if it's turning into cobblestones, or just a different kind of gravel/dirt surface. Infact, I don't even know what the road surface would be at this point?

 

i can't find anything at all of the surrounding area, would the line be fenced and gated in the way we would expect in the modern era? (speaking of the goods yard and as the line heads into the country)

 

Speaking of dividers, would the parcels of land on OS grids typically be fenced one way or another, or are they ownership demarcations?

 

What would pre-war military traffic look like, to a guards barracks? What about to an aerodrome? I'm sure I can get away with some plain old covered general merchandise wagons but that seems a shame!

 

 

Yes, the railway property would be fenced. Firstly, this would be a practicality, because of wandering livestock. Secondly, I am certain, without being able to quote the specific act, that railways were required by law to enclose their property and PW unless specifically authorised as street tramways.

 

I would expect goods traffic supplying a non-mechanised infantry-regiment to be mainly food. Some ammunition would be needed, but I suspect that live-firing practice was minimal in peacetime. Uniform and personal kit would be supplied, but possibly as parcels rather than full loads. I doubt that it would increase the town's traffic enough to be noticed. However, you do have an excuse to show a quartermaster's (road) wagon collecting from the station.

 

The aerodrome is more interesting. Aeroplanes have either to fly there or arrive by rail, so very rarely (perhaps once or twice a year) you might see a new aeroplane delivered by train. Rule 1 says that the day depicted on the layout just happens to be one of those days. Pre-war, I would expect aeroplanes to arrive crated. By the end of the Great War, there were special vans - effectively special CCTs - for aeroplanes, presumably to avoid the effort of crating and uncrating the 'crates'. One should remember that there were vanishingly few aeroplanes anywhere before ~1915, and most of the civilian machines were probably built at airfields and then flown to the aerodromes of choice. 

 

The aeroplanes need petrol and this probably comes by rail from the docks at London. Depending on how much is needed, it might come in wooden barrels or in metal cans (not "jerry" cans, as they were a German design of WW2; flat-sided tin cans of capacity around 2 gallons). I don't think a pre-war population of aeroplanes would "drink" enough to need full wagons of barrels and certainly not a rail tanker. You might find that there was, somewhere in the goods yard, a protected, "no naked lights" storage area for fuel, but I think it would contain more barrels of lamp oil than aviation spirit. It would not be a dedicated pump-house with fixed storage-tanks.

[Lacathedrale]

Ah excellent, good point. I assumed mostly passenger traffic but the  Caterham Railway book talked specifically of night-trains to the depot and I made the assumption it would be materiel Would those aeroplane crates be on flats? Is this the kind of flat can you were talking about, for the petrol ? https://www.gumtree.com/p/antiques/vintage-shell-petrol-can./1314880588

 

There was a gas-works up the line in Whyteleaf which was out of use during the specific years I'm thinking of modelling but I would imagine it'd provide a good source of coke/tar, and destination for coal/spares? Running some rough figures (Wincanton gas works in 1938 with a population of 2k needed 1,500 tons of coal per year - so Caterham with around 9000 would need at least 5000 tons of coal if we consider that it was less widely used) , and I think about ten wagons per week of coal, half that out of coke and one or two tank wagons of tar.

 

Would hop picker specials ( Hallilloo Platform - a halt between Whyteleaf and Caterham - was listed individualy as an excursion destination on SER promotional material in 1890!) be cause for celebrity engines and 'mainline' stock, or likely more to be whatever the railway had to hand?

 

Thanks for the confirmation on the railings - I gather that there would be iron fencing around the yard (SE&CR hoop top in my case), and then post-and-wire for the running lines?  A postcard shows Hastings station with paving slabs on the platform surface and buff/brown ballast - would this have been a generally accepted practice?

 

Time to figure out how to get LCDR 6-wheeled coaches in 2mm:ft!

Edited October 10, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Andy Hayter]

Road surface?

 

It does not look like cobbles or setts.  Tarmacadam was only patented in 1902 so seems unlikely.

 

The most likely surface is then crushed stone interspersed with earth and a liberal amount of horse muck - and if there was a local livestock market (highly likely back then) with an occasional coating of cowsh..

[billbedford]

Do you mean Macadam roads? 

[Andy Hayter]

No Tarmacadam - which involves adding tar to a macadam surface.

[Gareth Collier]

 

 

Time to figure out how to get LCDR 6-wheeled coaches in 2mm:ft!

You can get an ex LCDR 3 coach push pull set:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/SL92HPHQB/o-148-secr-6w-pushpull-coach-brake-third-1?optionId=64069492

https://www.shapeways.com/product/F5QQKTNJU/o-148-secr-6w-pushpull-coach-third-1?optionId=64069475

https://www.shapeways.com/product/B3M8LG4WY/o-148-secr-6w-pushpull-coach-first-1?optionId=64069482

[Lacathedrale]

Woohoo! That's great! I was just thinking to myself: "I should put together some 3d prints for bits I need" - but here some of the work has been done already. Those LCDR carriages are noted as push-pull fitted - does that mean they would run only in Push-pull sets, or anywhere as needed? (can I convert them back to plain usage?)

 

I think I'll wait for the SECR Carriage book before I go hog wild. I know that Bill Bedford/Mousa has an SER 6-wheeled carriage etch too.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Edwardian]

Woohoo! That's great! I was just thinking to myself: "I should put together some 3d prints for bits I need" - but here some of the work has been done already. Those LCDR carriages are noted as push-pull fitted - does that mean they would run only in Push-pull sets, or anywhere as needed? (can I convert them back to plain usage?)

 

I think I'll wait for the SECR Carriage book before I go hog wild. I know that Bill Bedford/Mousa has an SER 6-wheeled carriage etch too.

 

I have failed to find a decent source of drawings for SER and LCDR 6-wheel coaches.  If anyone knows of some, I'd be pathetically grateful. 

 

The push-pull conversions drawings are in Mike King's Southern Push-Pull book.

 

I have a mild aversion to these 3D printed products, because they are in WSF, or whatever it's now called, which I consider wholly unsuitable for panelled coaches as they need a lot of finishing to get even close to a smooth surface, and yet they are very expensive relative to the material used. It is a great pity, because this is a prolific designer, with many great pre-Grouping coaches in the range.   

 

He has 2 GER 4-wheel Brake Thirds that I have on my build list, but at £50+ each for 4mm scale WSF prints?  Forget it.

[Guy Rixon]

Ah excellent, good point. I assumed mostly passenger traffic but the  Caterham Railway book talked specifically of night-trains to the depot and I made the assumption it would be materiel Would those aeroplane crates be on flats? Is this the kind of flat can you were talking about, for the petrol ? https://www.gumtree.com/p/antiques/vintage-shell-petrol-can./1314880588

 

There was a gas-works up the line in Whyteleaf which was out of use during the specific years I'm thinking of modelling but I would imagine it'd provide a good source of coke/tar, and destination for coal/spares? Running some rough figures (Wincanton gas works in 1938 with a population of 2k needed 1,500 tons of coal per year - so Caterham with around 9000 would need at least 5000 tons of coal if we consider that it was less widely used) , and I think about ten wagons per week of coal, half that out of coke and one or two tank wagons of tar.

 

Would hop picker specials ( Hallilloo Platform - a halt between Whyteleaf and Caterham - was listed individualy as an excursion destination on SER promotional material in 1890!) be cause for celebrity engines and 'mainline' stock, or likely more to be whatever the railway had to hand?

 

Thanks for the confirmation on the railings - I gather that there would be iron fencing around the yard (SE&CR hoop top in my case), and then post-and-wire for the running lines?  A postcard shows Hastings station with paving slabs on the platform surface and buff/brown ballast - would this have been a generally accepted practice?

 

Time to figure out how to get LCDR 6-wheeled coaches in 2mm:ft!

 

That is roughly the kind of can I had in mind. That specific one may be a little later, judging by its markings. Before there were metering pumps at roadside garages, motor spirit was supplied wholesale in those cans.

 

Another traffic to the Guards barracks: horses for the officers and to pull the company transport.

 

For the aeroplane transport, why not find out the dimensions of some pre-war types? The wings would have to come off for transport, and possibly the landing gear, so it's a question of what railway vehicle can accommodate the crated fuselage. Weight will not be an issue here.

 

Hop-pickers trains were formed of the oldest, most disposable stock available. The travelling folk who picked the hops were thought to be filthy and uncivilised (I don't know whether this was actually true) and likely to ruin any good stock. The SECR held trains of obsolete stock just for this traffic. When Mr. Maunsell took over, he had drains built into the compartment floors so that they could be hosed down. Since these coaches would not capable of running fast, there would be no point in rostering an express engine; a large tank engine or a goods engine would do it.

 

If you look on the Worsley Works site, you will find many kinds of SECR coaches in 1:152. If you don't see what you need, they claim to be able to run up new etches to order.

[Guy Rixon]

Woohoo! That's great! I was just thinking to myself: "I should put together some 3d prints for bits I need" - but here some of the work has been done already. Those LCDR carriages are noted as push-pull fitted - does that mean they would run only in Push-pull sets, or anywhere as needed? (can I convert them back to plain usage?)

 

I think I'll wait for the SECR Carriage book before I go hog wild. I know that Bill Bedford/Mousa has an SER 6-wheeled carriage etch too.

The Mousa SER 2nd is broadly suitable to run in the 4-sets that worked to Caterham. It's possibly not from the correct lot, but it is a late-period Wainwright 6-wheeler of 33' length and they didn't vary much. But isn't it only available in 4mm? I'm confused about which scale you're after.