Pre Grouping general discussion

[t-b-g]

The complaints were about the locos being dirty and unkempt. Most were made with the sentiment of things 'not being like this in my day'.

 

Difficult to believe, since we all have grown out of such pettiness, haven't we.......

 

Of course (tongue in cheek alert) the old MS&LR crews, who wore white overalls and would be sacked on the spot if there was a dark smudge on them anywhere, would describe a loco as dirty and unkept if there was a grain of coal dust on the footplate.

 

They had standards you know!

 

Tony

[Etched Pixels]

Bear in mind that for Royal Trains in the period it was not unknown to whitewash the coal...

[Velopeur]

I rather like the artistic use of oily rags seen in some pre-grouping photos, giving a "chequer plate" kind of look to paintwork. If they had time to do that, they may even have had time to do the cleaning as well?

[MikeOxon]

Bear in mind that for Royal Trains in the period it was not unknown to whitewash the coal...

I would have expected each lump to be placed in a monogrammed bag

[brian777999]

I rather like the artistic use of oily rags seen in some pre-grouping photos, giving a "chequer plate" kind of look to paintwork. If they had time to do that, they may even have had time to do the cleaning as well?

 

I have heard, but not actually seen this. Does anybody have a photo ?

Edited January 8, 2014 by brian777999

[MikeOxon]

I have heard, but not actually seen this. Does anybody have a photo ?

 

Apparently, the cleaners used tallow to protect the paintwork and to create these patterns.  Sometimes the sides of the cab and tender looked like cinema curtains!

 

Mike

[queensquare]

I have heard, but not actually seen this. Does anybody have a photo ?

 

S&D Scottie No. 28 at Branksome - mid 1920s. Note the tender sides, particularly the pattern created around the springs.

 

Jerry

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by queensquare

[billbedford]

You have a bit of a choice when it comes to weathering. A friend of mine had a relative who worked for the MS&LR in the 1890s. He was told that the loco crews way back when wore white overalls and if management spotted them with dirt on the overalls they were disciplined, up to and including sacking.

 

Well I would guess that their cards would be ready for these two once they got back to the shed............

[Ohmisterporter]

I heard an old former Carnforth LNWR driver scornfully saying that the reason that Midland goods engines were so clean was that they didn't have any work to do, so the crews spent half their shift cleaning. He was a bit miffed when we laughed at that, but a bottle of pale ale got us back in his good books.

[technohand]

Cor I've started something haven't I!The Midland repainted their locomotives every seven years so if you take most of Mr Johnsons build dates and add seven you end up with with an engine with virtually no lining.Mind you the London locos were always imaculate no matter what their job was.

Tony

[Poggy1165]

On some busy railways goods trains spent a lot of time in loops, in extreme cases up to a whole shift. So maybe the crews did do a bit of cleaning on such occasions. After brewing up, reading the paper and cooking a few sausages on the shovel, I dare say that time dragged on such a shift.

[Bon Accord]

In the era of 'one crew, one engine' standards of cleanliness were very high, for example the North British Railway had a system of fines in place and which were used to fine Drivers if their loco was anything less than immaculate. The SRPS had an article about the practice within their in house magazine 'Blastpipe' some years ago and one excerpt I can remember was that the Driver of a class M (LNER C15) was fined 5 shillings after an inspector noticed some residual ash on the bufferbeam below the smokebox door. This occurred immediately after the loco had been on shed between turns and no doubt the crew in their haste to return the loco to service missed a few specks of ash, of course in those days excuses weren't tolerated as everything had to be 'just so', as witnessed in the immaculate condition of locos, stock, stations, signalboxes etc.

[mikeandnel]

Bon Accord

I agree with your info and that is why I still prefer to model in the way that I do, which is not to weather or deface stock with 19th century liveries that have also taken a long time to create in miniature fore

A typical example below:

 

 

[MikeOxon]

Bon Accord

I agree with your info and that is why I still prefer to model in the way that I do, which is not to weather or deface stock with 19th century liveries that have also taken a long time to create in miniature fore

A typical example below:

A very nice example, too.  I think many of us like to dream of a pre-WW1 age when everything about the railways was clean and bright - whatever the reality might have been. So, I too have white roofs on my GWR coaches!

[Pacific231G]

Bear in mind that for Royal Trains in the period it was not unknown to whitewash the coal...

I believe that whitewashing of stocked coal was quite common in those days but it was to deter people from nicking it because any "shrinkage" would have been immediately obvious. I assume this was a job given to the porters in slack periods.

 

I don't think there would be much point in whitewashing the coal in the tender of a royal train because it would rather rapidly disappear into the firebox but whitewashing cab roofs does seem to have been a practice on some railways and not just for Royal trains. It used to be claimed that members of the royal family thought the whole world smelt of new paint  but this was undoubtedly a myth unless the royal residences are also repainted every few days.

[Jol Wilkinson]

White ("lead white", IIRC) was fairly commonly used on carriage roofs. It was readily available and hence probably cheap. Of course it quickly became dirty in use, but then so would any carriage roof, irrespective of colour.

[t-b-g]

I believe that whitewashing of stocked coal was quite common in those days but it was to deter people from nicking it because any "shrinkage" would have been immediately obvious. I assume this was a job given to the porters in slack periods.

 

I don't think there would be much point in whitewashing the coal in the tender of a royal train because it would rather rapidly disappear into the firebox but whitewashing cab roofs does seem to have been a practice on some railways and not just for Royal trains. It used to be claimed that members of the royal family thought the whole world smelt of new paint  but this was undoubtedly a myth unless the royal residences are also repainted every few days.

 

The reference to the world smelling of fresh paint was probably in relation to the various visits made by royalty, rather than to their home life.

 

Everywhere they went seemed to have just had a new coat of paint. Not just in pre-grouping times either.

 

As for whitewashed coal on Royal Trains, it certainly happened in pre WW1 days. 

 

A quick internet search came up with a photo of an LBSCR tank on a Royal Train with what looks to be white coal in the bunker.

 

I even remember reading a reference to a Royal visit to a coal mine and the stacks of coal there being painted white. The only point to it was to try to impress Royalty with the amount of work that had been put into preparing for the visit.

 

Unless somebody can tell us that whitewashed coal in a loco made for a nice white exhaust...... 

Edited January 21, 2015 by t-b-g

[coachmann]

Every year we had the opportunity to vote for the summer close down in Chance-Pilkington Optical. One year we were told we had voted for May!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

We soon discovered the reason ....whitewash!  Reality eluded the royals when industry was given to creating an vision of utopia for working plebs. Can you imagine the conversation over crumpets in the royal train...."I say sis, I really dont know why the working classes complain and strike all the time. The works was spotless with a scented air of roses........The men had not a spot of grime on their overalls and there was a lovely red carpet in the toilet.....Which leads me to a query......Who was Kilroy?"

Edited January 21, 2015 by coachmann

[Andy Hayter]

I think you will find that the Royals are not as naïve as some imagine. 

 

When I joined a research laboratory it was shortly after a Royal visit and I was told that a certain prince of Greek origin was heard to state, "There is a strong smell of polish in here."

[MikeOxon]

I enjoy reading old books about 19th century railways.  One that stands out is "Our Iron Roads" by F.S Williams, first published in 1852 and running to several editions, the 7th dating from 1888.  It is quite rightly regarded as a classic and full of useful information for modellers.  It can be downloaded free from the Internet Archive https://archive.org/

 

I've just been reading the chapter about gauge conversion around Gloucester and, in passing, it gives an insight into the sorts of goods being carried at that time - great stuff for modellers!  I quote (from p.230 of the7th edition):

 

At Gloucester it occupied about an hour to
remove the contents of a wagon, full of miscellaneous merchandise,
from one gauge to another. An ordinary train might contain
" loose commodities, such as bricks, slates, lime or limestone,
and chalk, flags, clay, manure, salt, coal or coke, timber and
deals, dye-woods, iron, iron-ore, lead and metals, cast-iron pots,
grates and ovens, grindstones, brimstone, bones and hoofs, bark,
hides and sealskins, oil-cake, potatoes, onions, and other vegetables
; cheese, chairs, and furniture ; hardware, earthenware,
dry salteries, groceries, provisions, cotton wool, oils, wines, spirits,
and other liquids ; manufactured goods, fish and eggs, ripe fruit,
etc."

 

Hands up whoever has 'sealskins' represented on their model railway

 

Mike

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Guys (& Gals!),

I'm fascinated by the pre-grouping world, I don't know if it's the wonderful liveries, the variety of different railways, the almost absence of the auto-mobile, the slower pace of life or what but one thing I do know is that it is like looking at a different world altogether.

No doubt like most folk on here, I've taken interest in various railways through the years from exposure or proximity to MR, GNR, M&GNR, GCR, L&YR and LBSCR(!) as well as a passing interest in almost every other railway in the land BUT I wonder if anyone would be interested in "pre-group" railways of another country, namely Prussian and Bavarian railways of Germany?

My interest in both these widely different railways is set in and around the 1920 period which for Prussia meant the period of the "grouping" i.e. the DRG (German State Railway) but for Bavaria was approximately a decade before they joined the DRG.

I'm certainly no 'expert' as it is a hard job, deciphering what went on almost 100 years ago in a very foreign land but it is satisfying! Would anyone be interested in any more, please?

Cheers,

John E.

[Pacific231G]

Every year we had the opportunity to vote for the summer close down in Chance-Pilkington Optical. One year we were told we had voted for May!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

We soon discovered the reason ....whitewash!  Reality eluded the royals when industry was given to creating an vision of utopia for working plebs. Can you imagine the conversation over crumpets in the royal train...."I say sis, I really dont know why the working classes complain and strike all the time. The works was spotless with a scented air of roses........The men had not a spot of grime on their overalls and there was a lovely red carpet in the toilet.....Which leads me to a query......Who was Kilroy?"

The Queen was a driver and motor vehicle mechanic in the ATS during the war. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/24/article-2149307-134390F5000005DC-216_634x562.jpg Given the number of them who have had military careers I sometimes suspect that the royal family have had more experience of real work than many politicians who have spent their entire career in the Westminster bubble.

[Pacific231G]

 

......The men had not a spot of grime on their overalls and there was a lovely red carpet in the toilet.....Which leads me to a query......Who was Kilroy?"

 

 

 

There have been umpteen explanations for who Kilroy really was but the message and the simple drawing became almost universal amongst US service personnel during WW2 who drew it everywhere they went and it spread well beyond them. It was found to be a real morale booster so may have been encouraged by the military authorities.

 

The most convincing and best authenticated explanation seems to have been that Kilroy was James Kilroy an inspector working in a Boston shipyard where ships were being turned out at breakneck speed. His job was to inspect the rivetting (or possibly the welding) and to save time he simply chalked Kilroy Was Here outside each comparment that he'd inspected and passed. American troops being transported on these ships saw this message, had no idea what it meant but started writing it wherever they went and "it went viral". The simple graffito- it can bea lot simpler than the one above-  that usually accompanied or even replaced it probably came a bit later.

 

The only real hole in this explanation for me is that his chalkmarks must have either been made on surfaces that had already been painted or were left unpainted because the ships were pushed into surface so fast. Even for a Liberty ship the latter seems unlikely

 

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pacific231G

[coachmann]

The lads in Pilkington Glass were collecting Newspaper full page pin ups of footballers in the early 1970's and I told them they were poofs collecting pictures on men. So they bet me I couldn't name a famous engine driver! I uttered a name and left it at that.

 

By the next night shift, Kilroy had been joined by  "Who the fukc is Bill Hoole?"  

Edited January 26, 2015 by coachmann

[buffalo]

Now that is a subtle way of bringing us back on topic, Larry. After all, I believe Bill Hoole began his railway career in Edwardian times.

 

Nick

Edited January 26, 2015 by buffalo