Pre Grouping general discussion

[Hroth]

I didn't know about dog doings but horse (& other) urine was very much in evidence when my parents and I visited Fes in Morocco some 35-40 years ago.

I think it's Fes that's quite well known for leather goods, anyway the whole town/city STANK to high heaven, it was truly awful! I remember it running down little channels in the dirt streets, ugh! It's still enough to give me palpitations.

Maybe I can claim to have smelt the middle ages!?!

Cheers,

John.

Seeing as we've activated a time machine.....

 

Its probably been done in "Horrible Histories" and Tony Robinson addressed the matter in "The Worst Jobs in the Middle Ages", becoming a fuller, cleansing woollen cloth.  This involved a vat of stale urine, into which the cloth was placed.  The fullers job was to trudge around in the vat to remove the dirt and oils from the cloth...

 

The Romans kept their woollen togas sparkling white in the same way.

 

Stale urine is a fairly good bleach, it contains lots of ammonia, and the method was popular* until the mid-19th Century, when industrially produced bleaches became available..

 

Well, it IS pre-grouping! 

 

Nice van, btw!

 

* WIth regard to to the comment below posted by Regularity, I would like to clarify "popular" as referring to the grasping, avaricious employers grinding the faces of the working poor in the pursuit of profit.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Hroth

[MarkC]

I've modelled Midland, pre-1907, for many years now, but in the last 9 years have also become fascinated by the NER and its successors in the area.

 

Mark

[Smiffy2]

Henry Mayhew in his book 'London Labour and London Poor' (1851) interviews many people doing jobs which would seem rather odd or offensive to us today - or just strange, such as the man on London Bridge who sold looks through a microscope at a slide of Thames Water, or the woman who sold milk straight from the cow in Hyde Park. One old woman was a collector of 'pure' - dog faeces, sold by the bucket to the tanners. Prices were, apparently, falling as in times of recession so many were taking up the trade...

 

As to collection of urine, that goes back to the Romans, where each insula, or block of flats, had a large vat for the emptying of chamber pots, to be sold to bleachers and launderers.

 

I recommend Mayhew to anyone who hasn't read it. A fascinating book - look out for the rat catcher (spoiler - he caught the rats alive for ratting contests in pubs).

[Regularity]

Stale urine is a fairly good bleach, it contains lots of ammonia, and the method was popular until the mid-19th Century.

 

I think, perhaps, for the avoidance of doubt and confusion, popular here is used in the context of “frequently done”, rather than “things people liked doing”… Edited January 20, 2018 by Regularity

[Hroth]

Henry Mayhew in his book 'London Labour and London Poor' (1851) interviews many people doing jobs which would seem rather odd or offensive to us today - or just strange, such as the man on London Bridge who sold looks through a microscope at a slide of Thames Water, or the woman who sold milk straight from the cow in Hyde Park. One old woman was a collector of 'pure' - dog faeces, sold by the bucket to the tanners. Prices were, apparently, falling as in times of recession so many were taking up the trade...

 

As to collection of urine, that goes back to the Romans, where each insula, or block of flats, had a large vat for the emptying of chamber pots, to be sold to bleachers and launderers.

 

I recommend Mayhew to anyone who hasn't read it. A fascinating book - look out for the rat catcher (spoiler - he caught the rats alive for ratting contests in pubs).

In a fictional context, a lot of this territory is explored by Terry Pratchett in the later Anhk-Morpork novels (ref Harry King) and in "Dodger".  As far as "pure" goes, the whiter the better, or so I believe....

[ChrisN]

It's an O-gauge Slaters kit with S7 wheels - honestly nothing particularly unique but it has transfers, it has a pin wash, it has weathering and is functionally complete - which is a 'first' for railway modelling for me.

 

Bill,

It does look good your van.  When you say a 'first', is that a first model, or is it like me and you never finish anything so this is a first to be finished?  Do you have a layout to put it on? 

[Lacathedrale]

Bill,

It does look good your van.  When you say a 'first', is that a first model, or is it like me and you never finish anything so this is a first to be finished?  Do you have a layout to put it on? 

 

Hi Chris, 

 

Not my first model ever, but I've mainly been into wargames as a hobby in my teens and a few years ago. I've been doing model railways on and off too, but never managed to actually finish a kit, let alone a paint job. I don't have a layout for my S7 stuff unfortunately, my membership to the society has lapsed and though I've got a stonking great garage now even that quakes in fear at S7 radii. With lots of help I'm downsizing significantly to 2mmFS, but in the meantime while I'm waiting for kits and parts to be delivered I decided to practise my airbrush and oil wash skills. I'm glad it came out nicely. I've got an LNER coal wagon too but needs some serious toning down...

[TheQ]

At Tidworth barracks built 1905 ish, barrels of pure, and also horse manure were exported by the military. How long this practice continued i don't know.

With that and Ludgershall station urinals being smelt some distance away I will not be fitting smellyvision to my layout.

 

To the Tiree layout with a whisky distillery there might be vapours, coming out of a chimney.

[Hroth]

At Tidworth barracks built 1905 ish, barrels of pure, and also horse manure were exported by the military. How long this practice continued i don't know.

With that and Ludgershall station urinals being smelt some distance away I will not be fitting smellyvision to my layout.

 

To the Tiree layout with a whisky distillery there might be vapours, coming out of a chimney.

Would it be safe to put even heavily diluted cheap whisky into a Seuth generator?

 

Apart from anything else, you'd be inhaling the vapours all day...  

[Regularity]

Would it be safe to put even heavily diluted cheap whisky into a Seuth generator?

Cheap whisky?

No such thing.

There is whisky, made from malted barley, and then there’s the horrible imitation stuff, made using cheap grain. But I wouldn’t call that whisky. What I would call it wouldn’t get past the censor...

[Caley Jim]

To the Tiree layout with a whisky distillery there might be vapours, coming out of a chimney.

And there will also be the 'Angel's Share' coming out of the bonded warehouse.

 

Cheap whisky?

No such thing.

On a tour of the Erdradour distillery (the smallest distillery in Scotland, just outside Pitlochry) the guide started by saying that whisky making was essentially a simple process, to which an American visitor asked, 'In that case, why is it so expensive?'. I was tempted to reply, 'Because the b****y exciseman takes so much!'.

 

Jim

[Hroth]

Cheap whisky?

No such thing.

There is whisky, made from malted barley, and then there’s the horrible imitation stuff, made using cheap grain. But I wouldn’t call that whisky. What I would call it wouldn’t get past the censor...

The Scots distil grain whisky, label it as whisky and export it as whisky so we must refer to even the cheapest blends of the stuff as whisky.

 

It may taste like meths, but you DON'T have to drink it!

 

Grain vs Malted.  The OO/P4 debate of the spirit world?

[Regularity]

The Scots distil grain whisky, label it as whisky and export it as whisky so we must refer to even the cheapest blends of the stuff as whisky.

 

If they are canny enough to label it as such, and people are daft enough to drink it... then we’ll done them!

It may taste like meths, but you DON'T have to drink it!

 

How do you know what it, and meths, taste like?

 

According to my wife, one of the worst smells in the world is the breath of a meths drinker.

Also, most alcoholics she has met avoid cheap whisky as it makes them violent.

 

I should add that these encounters were experienced during her professional training.

But it would have been fun not to have mentioned it!

Grain vs Malted. The OO/P4 debate of the spirit world?

I very nearly added that my approach to whisky was the same as my approach to model railways, and indeed to writing:

Distinctly finescale!

Edited January 21, 2018 by Regularity

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris, 

 

Not my first model ever, but I've mainly been into wargames as a hobby in my teens and a few years ago. I've been doing model railways on and off too, but never managed to actually finish a kit, let alone a paint job. I don't have a layout for my S7 stuff unfortunately, my membership to the society has lapsed and though I've got a stonking great garage now even that quakes in fear at S7 radii. With lots of help I'm downsizing significantly to 2mmFS, but in the meantime while I'm waiting for kits and parts to be delivered I decided to practise my airbrush and oil wash skills. I'm glad it came out nicely. I've got an LNER coal wagon too but needs some serious toning down...

 

Bill,

That is quite a jump down in scale!  I do not think my eyes would work at that size, ignoring that there are no kits for what I want to do.  I have scratchbuilt some things in 4mm but I am not sure I could do it smaller.

 

My sons were into wargamming, mainly Warhammer, but before that anything that took their fancy.  Only the Warhammer stuff ever got painted.  My youngest son and I had a Napoleonic era campaign going before he got married and was quite keen that we started it up again but I think that the birth of his daughter a few weeks ago will put an end to that, at least for a while.

 

If you end up with a Pre-Grouping layout put it in this section, or at least put in a link to it

Edited January 21, 2018 by ChrisN

[Hroth]

If they are canny enough to label it as such, and people are daft enough to drink it... then we’ll done them!

How do you know what it, and meths, taste like?

 

According to my wife, one of the worst smells in the world is the breath of a meths drinker.

Also, most alcoholics she has met avoid cheap whisky as it makes them violent.

 

I should add that these encounters were experienced during her professional training.

But it would have been fun not to have mentioned it!

I very nearly added that my approach to whisky was the same as my approach to model railways, and indeed to writing:

Distinctly finescale!

 

All I shall say about meths is:

 

Merit.

Chemistry.

Set.

 

'nuff said...

[Lacathedrale]

Bill,

That is quite a jump down in scale!  I do not think my eyes would work at that size, ignoring that there are no kits for what I want to do.  I have scratchbuilt some things in 4mm but I am not sure I could do it smaller.

 

My sons were into wargamming, mainly Warhammer, but before that anything that took their fancy.  Only the Warhammer stuff ever got painted.  My youngest son and I had a Napoleonic era campaign going before he got married and was quite keen that we started it up again but I think that the birth of his daughter a few weeks ago will put an end to that, at least for a while.

 

If you end up with a Pre-Grouping layout put it in this section, or at least put in a link to it

 

Hi Chris, you're right - I had flirted with EM in the past and may do so again in future should the stars align, but being based at home and not really having the impetus to exhibit (although I'm trying to goad myself into it!), and a fair dissatisfaction with MPD/TMD/shunting plank layouts does limit me somewhat even in 4mm:ft. I may yet whack up a little S7 cameo, I guess the good thing about model railways is that neither the prototype nor the modelling change much over the years.

[Lacathedrale]

Randomly found myself browsing SER Kits and I'm really besotted by some of his mid-late 19th Century kits - the Stirling A-class for example! It's in a lovely apple green and chocolate scheme in his catalogue https://serailkits.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/serkits-catalogue-kits-may-20131.pdf I gather those are as-built schemes and would have lasted some indeterminate period - but for some reason I've got it into my head that the SER and LCDR alike had very austere schemes (which is why the SE&CR lined green and crimson was so impressive). What's the deal?

 

He seems to be a bit of a one-stop shop when it comes to this period: passenger trains, coaches, railway wagons, etc. To be clear though, what kind of stock would one see on a branch/secondary main? From what I can read on his site the four wheel coaches would be in evidence, and some rather stumpy brake vans - but what about wagons? Would P.O. wagons appear in this context (if so, which kinds please? I gather probably dumb-buffered?)

Edited January 27, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Nick Holliday]

Randomly found myself browsing SER Kits and I'm really besotted by some of his mid-late 19th Century kits -

 

He seems to be a bit of a one-stop shop when it comes to this period: passenger trains, coaches, railway wagons, etc. To be clear though, what kind of stock would one see on a branch/secondary main? From what I can read on his site the four wheel coaches would be in evidence, and some rather stumpy brake vans - but what about wagons? Would P.O. wagons appear in this context (if so, which kinds please? I gather probably dumb-buffered?)

Much would depend on your chosen period, as stock design changed over time.  Also your definition of a secondary mainlline is crucial. Both the SER and LCDR were introducing bogie stock before the end of the century / Victorian era, and whilst that might not have appeared on secondary lines, the six wheeled stock would probably have been cascaded down, even if the branch lines had to suffer four wheeled stock for longer.

As regards goods and PO wagons, I am not sure when dumb-buffers would have been phased out generally, but judging by the Gloucester photo archive, few new wagons would have been so fitted after about 1870, and they were allowed to continue in use until around 1913 and later in Scotland, so there would be plenty around, but not in the majority by the end of the era.  Company owned stock would generally be ahead of the PO market, but I know the LBSC and SER had continued building dumb-buffered ballast wagons to old designs for quite some time, and, as non-revenue stock, theywere not subject to the same rules and survived into grouping, I believe.

[Pacific231G]

At Tidworth barracks built 1905 ish, barrels of pure, and also horse manure were exported by the military. How long this practice continued i don't know.

With that and Ludgershall station urinals being smelt some distance away I will not be fitting smellyvision to my layout.

 

To the Tiree layout with a whisky distillery there might be vapours, coming out of a chimney.

In the late middle ages I believe that the urine from bishops was thought to make the very best quality gunpowder. Apparently this wasn't just superstition. Bishops, and to a lesser extent priests, ate and drank well and that improved the quality of the "product" 

 

The town of Saumur on the south bank of the Loire is famous for its mushrooms. They are grown in artificial caves that were fairly simple to carve out of the soft rock known as tuffe* but the main reason why mushroom production developed there was because it was the home of the French army's cavalry school!

Edited January 29, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Lacathedrale]

Much would depend on your chosen period, as stock design changed over time.  Also your definition of a secondary mainlline is crucial. Both the SER and LCDR were introducing bogie stock before the end of the century / Victorian era, and whilst that might not have appeared on secondary lines, the six wheeled stock would probably have been cascaded down, even if the branch lines had to suffer four wheeled stock for longer.

As regards goods and PO wagons, I am not sure when dumb-buffers would have been phased out generally, but judging by the Gloucester photo archive, few new wagons would have been so fitted after about 1870, and they were allowed to continue in use until around 1913 and later in Scotland, so there would be plenty around, but not in the majority by the end of the era.  Company owned stock would generally be ahead of the PO market, but I know the LBSC and SER had continued building dumb-buffered ballast wagons to old designs for quite some time, and, as non-revenue stock, theywere not subject to the same rules and survived into grouping, I believe.

 

Excellent, so to confirm that there would be PO wagons, older examples with dumb buffers? Do you have a link to this photo archive? It would be helpful to get an idea of what I'm going to be looking for because other than looking for kits which are for companies which I know to be concurrent with the SER I'm not sure what else to check (or even where to find out what to check!)

 

With regard to coaching stock/etc. I'm thinking Caterham, Greenwich Park or equivalent i.e. a relatively short branch off a rather busy mainline, some through trains and some branch-only. It would be in 7mm and so unlikely to be much more than an out-and-back layout even with the best intentions. If there is scope for six wheelers on secondary mainlines and four wheelers for branch traffic then that works fine for me. 

[Nick Holliday]

Excellent, so to confirm that there would be PO wagons, older examples with dumb buffers? Do you have a link to this photo archive? It would be helpful to get an idea of what I'm going to be looking for because other than looking for kits which are for companies which I know to be concurrent with the SER I'm not sure what else to check (or even where to find out what to check!)

 

With regard to coaching stock/etc. I'm thinking Caterham, Greenwich Park or equivalent i.e. a relatively short branch off a rather busy mainline, some through trains and some branch-only. It would be in 7mm and so unlikely to be much more than an out-and-back layout even with the best intentions. If there is scope for six wheelers on secondary mainlines and four wheelers for branch traffic then that works fine for me.

 

I was thinking of Keith Montague's book on the Gloucester Wagons. Checking it again, although wagons with sprung buffers were being built by the seventies, it would appear that Gloucester were still building dumb buffered wagons up to around 1887, presumably at the request of customers after the cheapest deals. I am no expert on the topic, but I think the RCH specification issued around 1887 removed this option. One nice variation which is seldom, if ever, modelled, is the use of dumb buffers on one end, with sprung buffers at the other.

You might find John Arkell's book on PO Wagons of the South-East gives some further ideas of what might be seen on the SER, and there is a nice photo of Orpington which shows plenty of four wheeled coaches in service after 1903.

[Regularity]

One nice variation which is seldom, if ever, modelled, is the use of dumb buffers on one end, with sprung buffers at the other.

 

These were generally (if not exclusively) used in trains travelling down the South Wales Valleys to the ports, arranged with all the wagons the same way round (for end unloading at the docks) and having each set of dumb buffers up against a set of sprung buffers of the neighbouring wagon.

There are very few pre-grouping layouts set in the valleys, and even fewer set in the Victorian era, which might be why we don’t see these modelled, assuming that they are modelled at all.

[Guy Rixon]

Randomly found myself browsing SER Kits and I'm really besotted by some of his mid-late 19th Century kits - the Stirling A-class for example! It's in a lovely apple green and chocolate scheme in his catalogue https://serailkits.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/serkits-catalogue-kits-may-20131.pdf I gather those are as-built schemes and would have lasted some indeterminate period - but for some reason I've got it into my head that the SER and LCDR alike had very austere schemes (which is why the SE&CR lined green and crimson was so impressive). What's the deal?

 

He seems to be a bit of a one-stop shop when it comes to this period: passenger trains, coaches, railway wagons, etc. To be clear though, what kind of stock would one see on a branch/secondary main? From what I can read on his site the four wheel coaches would be in evidence, and some rather stumpy brake vans - but what about wagons? Would P.O. wagons appear in this context (if so, which kinds please? I gather probably dumb-buffered?)

 

 

There were few bogie coaches on either the SER or the LCDR. On the latter, those that were built appeared mainly in the last few years before the formation of the SECR. On the SER, William Wainwright built far more 6-wheeled coaches than bogie coaches and 6-wheeled stock was still common on boat trains into early SECR days. The decisive switch to bogie stock happened when Harry Wainwright took post and I think he ordered no more 6-wheeled coaches; but that was only two years before the end of the SER's independent existence.

 

I would expect a secondary line on the SER to have seen mainly 4-wheeled coaches and some older 6-wheeled stock, noting that the coaches built before the 1880s had arc roofs.

 

In Mr. Stirling's time, the engines were in lined black. This was a simple livery compared to Mr. Wainwright's scheme, but locomotives were well cleaned and would have been quite smart.

 

For PO wagons, you need to get a copy of Private Owner Wagons of the South-East by John Arkell. There were many such. Much of the coal for Kent arrived by sea, so as one looks further from London, there were relatively fewer wagons owned by collieries and more owned by coal factors. There were the usual mix of merchants' wagons.

[tomparryharry]

Taff Vale Railway please...

 

It went well before my time, but enough existed well into the 1980's to have an effect on me, such as architecture, practices, and the social history that pervades the area.

 

Plus, you can't have a Taff Vale locomotive, without at least 50-odd 7 plank wagons in tow.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Lacathedrale]

For PO wagons, you need to get a copy of Private Owner Wagons of the South-East by John Arkell. There were many such. Much of the coal for Kent arrived by sea, so as one looks further from London, there were relatively fewer wagons owned by collieries and more owned by coal factors. There were the usual mix of merchants' wagons.

 

Perfect, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. I can see a few copies on sale for £22.50 or so, so I'll definitely grab one. Of course, that's hoping that there's enough SER/LCDR in there  

 

All the very best,