Pre Grouping general discussion

[Allegheny1600]

In the late middle ages I believe that the urine from bishops was thought to make the very best quality gunpowder. Apparently this wasn't just superstition. Bishops, and to a lesser extent priests, ate and drank well and that improved the quality of the "product" 

 

The things you learn as a railway modeller!

In Continental H0, Brawa used to make a 'latrine' wagon with three large barrels of "product" mounted on a flat wagon, it wasn't really a latrine of course, that was just a name. This was for epoch I so what we would call "pre group", I guess the product carried may have been for darker, warlike purposes than sanitary.

[Dick Turpin]

In the late middle ages I believe that the urine from bishops was thought to make the very best quality gunpowder.

 

I once came across a reference to an ancient gunpowder recipe, which referred to one ingredient as 'the p*ss of an alcohol drinker', and given that the clergy have never been famous for being teetotal, you are probably right.

[Poggy1165]

Urine was used for a variety of industrial purposes. In the middle ages male urine was routinely collected in jars left on street corners, as it was valuable for the cloth industry.

 

I remember reading a source about the English Civil War, and the need for saltpetre. One of the places they used to dig for it was under the women's seats in churches. This proves two things: 1. Sermons were very long in those days and 2. men and women sat separately, on either side of the aisle. (An arrangement that was customary in many places until the 19th Century, when apparently some big-wig decided that he wanted to sit with his wife.)

[billbedford]

Urine was used for a variety of industrial purposes. In the middle ages male urine was routinely collected in jars left on street corners, as it was valuable for the cloth industry.

 

I remember reading a source about the English Civil War, and the need for saltpetre. One of the places they used to dig for it was under the women's seats in churches. This proves two things: 1. Sermons were very long in those days and 2. men and women sat separately, on either side of the aisle. (An arrangement that was customary in many places until the 19th Century, when apparently some big-wig decided that he wanted to sit with his wife.)

 

 

3 Churches had earth floors

[Regularity]

All this talk of urine collection on a model railway bulletin board. Someone’s taking the p155...

[Caley Jim]

All this talk of urine collection on a model railway bulletin board. Someone’s taking the p155...

Does that mean they might get their P45?  

 

Jim

[Regularity]

Taff Vale Railway please...

 

It went well before my time, but enough existed well into the 1980's to have an effect on me, such as architecture, practices, and the social history that pervades the area.

 

Plus, you can't have a Taff Vale locomotive, without at least 50-odd 7 plank wagons in tow.

That would be true in the latter days of pre-grouping, and even then not completely so.

RCH specifications were usually a reflection of the current state of play, so to speak, to provide something which would become the standard for the next few years. The 1907 specifications were an attempt to standardise on the best practices at that time, including the use of 7 planks for coal wagons - despite many coal merchants not wanting the extra capacity (more coal means a longer time to unload/sell and an increased risk of demurrage charges, plus a higher price to pay for the extra coal) as this suited the colliers.

The earliest example I have found of a wagon to this size was built in 1896, and it was the early Edwardian period - when a lot of investment was being made by many railway companies - before they became commonplace for new builds.

 

Prior to that, 5 plank coal wagons were the most common coal wagons, with a 4-plank side door: 6 plank wagons, never very common, came after the 7 plankers in response and as a sop to complaints from local merchants about their being too much coal in a 7 planker, etc.

 

For export coal traffic, the collieries would be using the bigger wagons, and trains might well consist of wagons from a single colliery, but the sizes would vary as would for many companies, the livery and lettering on the wagons: some variety is still possible.

 

As with everything, photogenic evidence is the best thing, but it takes time and frequently there will be some useful information in the background of another picture. (If anyone has a picture of the TVR from the nineteenth century that proves me wrong, I will be delighted!)

[wagonman]

 

Prior to that, 5 plank coal wagons were the most common coal wagons, with a 4-plank side door: 6 plank wagons, never very common, came after the 7 plankers in response and as a sop to complaints from local merchants about their being too much coal in a 7 planker, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Ah the danger of generalisations! The Gloucester company was building 6 plank wagons long before they started to produce 7 plankers, some of them even pre-dating the 1887 'New Specification'. The did, in the early C20 produce a 6 and a half planker, usually with a lifting flap over the door, to address the problems of local coal merchants. They also continued to built 5 plank wagons up to the war (WW1 that is), though increasingly production turned to 7 plank wagons of 10 tons and later 12 tons capacity – starting in the 1890s.

 

 

[Regularity]

OK, but the number of planks may be a misnomer: they may have been smaller splanks, so no increase in capacity. GWR 3 plank wagons were the same depth as their preceding 2 plank wagons.

 

Anyway, the general point was there was massive variety in the wagon fleet.

[Compound2632]

I've had, half-finished, for many years a set of sides for an Ocean Colliery, Treharris, wagon, based on Plate 434 of Keith Montague's Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd (OPC, 1981). This shows wagon 4817, a standard Gloucester 10 ton 6-plank wagon with side and end doors and Gloucester 4S axleboxes, built July 1987. I was recently given a copy of Colin Chapman's The Nelson and Ynysybwl Branches of the Taff Vale Railway (Oakwood Press, 1997). This includes another Gloucester official photo, of Ocean wagon 917, built May 1893 and identical to 4817 in every respect except for having the earlier pattern of round-bottomed Gloucester axleboxes (per the Slater's kits). 1893 was the year in which this colliery was renamed Ocean, having previously been known as the Harris Navigation (it took its final name of Deep Navigation at nationalisation). Poking around online turned up this photo of wagon No. 452, said to have been taken in 1915. This is a 10 ton 5-plank side and end door wagon, possibly, judging by the one visible axlebox, maintained by the Gloucester C&W Co., though maybe from a different builder, going by the rather wordy-looking plate on the solebar. Possibly bought or hired second-hand? There's a selection of photos of the colliery here. I particularly like this photo, unfortunately undated but certainly pre-1913 as it features dumb-buffered and half-dumb-buffered wagons. The majority are six planks, the most legible number being 2607; these may all be Gloucester wagons. But there are also five and even four plank wagons visible.

 

The photo of No. 452, looking rather smart with the lettering quite fresh, demonstrates that these wagons were well-maintained and repainted at frequent intervals - as frequently as every three years, as wagonman has reported elsewhere. 

 

The point is, here is a major South Wales colliery before the Great War with not a 7-plank wagon in sight. This might be because the coal produced was denser than that from other coalfields, e.g. the East Midlands.

[Compound2632]

Sorry, again. On the subject of coal merchants' wagons, I've been looking at Gloucestershire and Worcestershire merchants who were getting at least some of their coal from the North Warwickshire coalfield. [Ref. Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (Lightmoor Press, 2006) and Montague, op. cit.] It's noticeable that while the majority of Stroud merchants preferred 6-plank (3'8" deep) or 7-plank (4'0" deep) 10 ton wagons, the merchants of Malvern went for 5-plank (3'1" deep) 8 ton wagons, well into the Edwardian period. In fact, my impression from the Montague book is that more 5-plank wagons were being supplied to merchants after c. 1898 than in the earlier 1890s.

[Andy Hayter]

Re: Ocean/Deep Navigation

I did wonder if this might be an anthracite mine.  My limited experience of anthracite is that it tends to be very friable and ends up as quite fine lumps - which would give  a high pack density and mean you could use smaller (5 and 6 plank) wagons.  Unfortunately not.  It produced high grade steam coal.

 

http://www.treharrisdistrict.co.uk/the-collieries/deep-navigation/

 

has interesting pictures:

1. Confirming 5 and 6 plank wagons - the picture labelled Police at the colliery ( http://www.treharrisdistrict.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/New-Picture2.bmp ) shows both side by side in the background.

2. Later pictures (BR era   http://treharrisdistrict.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/dn_trucks.jpg   ) show the coal graded/screened into mid sized lumps and fine coal not dissimilar to anthracite.  Note the coarse coal tends to be loaded rather higher in the wagons (especially the near white one mid picture) than the finer grade coals.

 

So there is no immediately obvious reason why they did not go to 7 plank wagons other than the obvious one that they never felt the need to do so.

 

 

Amidst the pit head pictures there are a number of interesting shots that are at least partially railway related including a dumb buffer 6 plank Gloucester wagon.

[Compound2632]

Presumably (dangerous word) the Harris' Deep Navigation wagons passed to the Ocean Coal Co. when they took over the Treharris colliery. Also, having read a bit more on these various colliery websites, I now understand that the Ocean Co. predates 1893, being David Davis' creation. (He of the Talerddig cutting.) So I suppose the Ocean wagon fleet served other South Wales collieries too.

[bbishop]

Some pits could only load 5 plank wagons.

 

Bill

[Compound2632]

Some pits could only load 5 plank wagons.

 

Bill

 

Why? How? Which coalfields? Details, details... Or reference to a good book on the subject, focusing on the pre-Great War period!

[bbishop]

 

 

With regard to coaching stock/etc. I'm thinking Caterham, Greenwich Park or equivalent i.e. a relatively short branch off a rather busy mainline, some through trains and some branch-only. It would be in 7mm and so unlikely to be much more than an out-and-back layout even with the best intentions. If there is scope for six wheelers on secondary mainlines and four wheelers for branch traffic then that works fine for me. 

 

Bill,  you need to be canny.  Caterham, Addiscombe and Bromley North were the best known SER London termini.  Bromley certainly was very rebuild by the Southern Railway, the others possibly.  Greenwich Park was LCDR terminus.

 

Bill

[bbishop]

Why? How? Which coalfields? Details, details... Or reference to a good book on the subject, focusing on the pre-Great War period!

 

Stephen, an opportunity for you to do some research.  You might want to start with the North Somerset coalfield.

 

Bill

[Compound2632]

Stephen, an opportunity for you to do some research.  You might want to start with the North Somerset coalfield.

 

Bill

 

I've got plenty of research on my plate! Actually, as I mentioned, my main interest is the North Warwickshire coalfield.

[brian777999]

Is there a thread on converting a GWR Dean Goods  loco to the older round top firebox version ? Red frame colour scheme would be nice too ! I thought a few people had done that but I cannot find it. Does anybody know when the last firebox conversion was completed ?

[Compound2632]

Is there a thread on converting a GWR Dean Goods  loco to the older round top firebox version ? Red frame colour scheme would be nice too ! I thought a few people had done that but I cannot find it. Does anybody know when the last firebox conversion was completed ?

 

See Mikkel's blog and his workbench thread. The latter contains plenty of prototype info too, there's also relevant info scattered around the various Oxford Dean Goods threads, if you dig for it. I'm still thinking about attempting this myself - having finally seen one running at the club, the mechanism is impressively quiet.

[Brassey]

There is a study on here that has been reported on "Wright writes...." which currently shows that less than 10% model pre-grouping and slightly more would prefer to.  Food for thought?

[Regularity]

There is a study on here that has been reported on "Wright writes...." which currently shows that less than 10% model pre-grouping and slightly more would prefer to.  Food for thought?

Well, it suggests that “modelling” has become replaced with “buying”: there is nothing to stop them from actually getting down and dirty with basic tools and materials - there are plenty already doing that here.

[Compound2632]

Well, it suggests that “modelling” has become replaced with “buying”: 

 

Well, here's one for the RTR wishlisters: what is the largest class of British locomotive (in terms of numbers built) not to have appeared as a RTR model?

 

EDIT: no quibbling about built in Britain but for export, or RTR as in hand-built in small quantities at great expense - there's a plain, straightforward answer.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Caley Jim]

CR 294 class (Aka Jumbo)?

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

CR 294 class (Aka Jumbo)?

 

Jim

 

Fraid not. 244 locomotives (counting both 294 and 711 Classes) - small beer.