Pre Grouping Workbench content links

[Portchullin Tatty]

Whilst I tend to model a variety of things for myself and others, I am mostly interested in the former Highland Railway in about 1926 basically because I love the Highland's locos but in the much more interesting lined crimson lake than the dull all over green!  However, I do also suffer from a decent dose of pre WW1 NER too due an involvement with someone else's layout

 

I put all of this, and a dose more on my public blog which is here.  The main elements that are pre-group are:

 

Glenmutchkin (LMS/HR) - circa 1926

Benfieldside (NER) - circa 1910-14

Work bench thread is split into two categories stock and other things - both of these cover a lot of things, so it goes much wider than just the pre-group era.

 

Much (but definitely not all) of this gets repeated on my RMWeb workbench and layout threads, both of which can be seen as part of my signature.

[Edwardian]

Whilst I tend to model a variety of things for myself and others, I am mostly interested in the former Highland Railway in about 1926 basically because I love the Highland's locos but in the much more interesting lined crimson lake than the dull all over green!  However, I do also suffer from a decent dose of pre WW1 NER too due an involvement with someone else's layout

 

I put all of this, and a dose more on my public blog which is here.  The main elements that are pre-group are:

 

Glenmutchkin (LMS/HR) - circa 1926

Benfieldside (NER) - circa 1910-14

Work bench thread is split into two categories stock and other things - both of these cover a lot of things, so it goes much wider than just the pre-group era.

 

Much (but definitely not all) of this gets repeated on my RMWeb workbench and layout threads, both of which can be seen as part of my signature.

 

Something to look forward to browsing!

[PGN]

Here's the link to my pre-grouping N gauge workbench thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43725-pgns-pre-grouping-n-gauge-workbench/

Edited March 4, 2018 by PGN

[Edwardian]

Here's the link to my pre-grouping N gauge workbench thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43725-pgns-pre-grouping-n-gauge-workbench/

 

And a treasure trove it proves to be.  Good stuff.

[CKPR]

On 11/10/2016 at 14:54, Portchullin Tatty said:

.. love the Highland's locos but in the much more interesting lined crimson lake than the dull all over green!

My thoughts exactly !

[Penrhos1920]

Here’s my pre-grouping workbench:

I’ve started bringing together all of my workbench like threads into one.  Penrhos is set in 1920 with odd rule 1 excursion if it’s quick and easy.

[SteamAle]

This is my current project, well one of them!

 

 

[Matti8]

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157824-scottish-lms-mattis-workbench/

 

This is my newly created workbench where my interest is in ex-Caledonian and ex-Highland locomotives, stock in early LMS days.

 

Matti

[jamie92208]

I model Mainly Midland set in 1923 so most of it is pre grouping. I post about it on my Lancaster Green Ayre layout thread.  Current build is a 4F.

 

Jamie

Edited September 15, 2020 by jamie92208

[Londontram]

As most of you know I was firmly welded to the Caledonian but a couple of lucky acquisition plus encouragement from Any (uax6) and doing some swaps with him I'm  now getting quite a collection of Highland locos to build. So the bugs bit me and ive caught the disease 

[Londontram]

Oh don't worry I'll still be Caledonian and the layout will be a frictional Caley based line with the Highland having running rights.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Londontram
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[Northroader]

I’ll probably be slung out on my ear for modelling the Highland as a On16.5 line, my Whimsy project, but I’m afraid some aspects have meant it needs a thoroughgoing rebuild at present. The main pregrouping job is the Washbourne line, which started off as LBSC, but gets a periodic rebuild and mutation, so can change with the weather. Nobody’s mentioned Continental pregrouping, either. There’s links to these in my signature.

 

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

I’ll probably be slung out on my ear for modelling the Highland as a On16.5 line, my Whimsy project,..... .

There was a proposal to build a branch from Garve to Ullapool at one time. You could always claim that was built as an NG line. 

 

Jim 

[Allegheny1600]

On 29/09/2020 at 13:17, Northroader said:

Nobody’s mentioned Continental pregrouping, either.

Oo-er!

see my signature for some of that (Prussian).

 I actually feel a bit out of place here but it is pre-grouping effectively, being more or less post ww1 and before the formation of the “national railway” but I have “only” used proprietary stock. The subject matter is such that there are few kits available and my knowledge is sadly lacking.

Even in European/German forums, interest is rather limited.

Cheers,

John E.

[Andy Hayter]

I missed the European pre-grouping comment.  It is largely irrelevant unless we go way back into earlier Victorian times, since most railway administrations were either state (often a small country) or regional based companies (France for example).  At around the time that grouping took place in the UK, nationalisation was taking place in many of these countries.

 

 

 

So @Allegheny1600 with his Prussian layout is no more pre-grouping than my Paris-Lyon-Mediterranean "layout" is.   [I put layout in parentheses since the only one in current usable existence has not been put up or exhibited since 1997.]  Like Prussian State railways, the PLM came into existence well back in the 1800s.   As such they cover the pre-grouping timescale but they went from that state, straight to nationalisation (IIRC 1920 and 1937 respectively).  

 

Pre-nationalisation would therefore be a better term. Or if you wanted to be pernickety pre-nationalisation before the 1920s.  

 

The question would then arise if in my case a PLM layout depicting the 1930s can be compared with a pre-grouping layout of a UK example - possibly not- even though some of the locomotives and stock date back to that time and not despoiled by some sort of standardisation in livery or technical upgrading.   So some looking very similar if not the same as they would have done in the 1900s/1910s.

 

I think what I am saying is that you cannot impose UK terminology on foreign administrations any more than you can impose German based epochs on other countries because the timescales were different - sometimes very different.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Andy Hayter

[Regularity]

11 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

It is largely irrelevant unless we go way back into earlier Victorian times, since most railway administrations were either state (often a small country) or regional based companies (France for example).  At around the time that grouping took place in the UK, nationalisation was taking place in many of these countries.

As the UK railways were under government control during WW1, and discussions over grouping vs nationalisation began about then, I usually interpret the phrase “pre-grouping” to refer not to events, but when they happened, and usually effectively pre summer 1914.

 

I don’t think the the phrase is “irrelevant” to other locations at all: a touch anachronistic, maybe, but if you look around, then other than GWR broad gauge with its 22 May 1892 cutoff date, then most modellers are modelling the Edwardian era, pushing back slightly into the last decade or so of the Victorian age.

That’s not a very wide time frame: maybe 25 years, comparable to the “grouping”era, but again, state ownership from 1st September 1939 effectively put an end to that era after 16 years and 8 months.

[Allegheny1600]

18 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

[I put layout in parentheses since the only one in current usable existence has not been put up or exhibited since 1997.] 

 

I think what I am saying is that you cannot impose UK terminology on foreign administrations any more than you can impose German based epochs on other countries because the timescales were different - sometimes very different.

You’re quite right but I did say “pre-grouping effectively”!!

 I would have loved to have stated the German equivalent of “Edwardian” but I understand there is no such thing. There is a German equivalent (more or less) of “Victorian” which would be “Wilhelmine” see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelminism but that only runs from 1890 - 1918.

I couldn’t even call “my” period “Belle Epoche” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Époque

 

All I can say is that this is a fascinating period to model, either side of the Channel!

 

By the way, I would absolutely love to see some of your PLM models, credit mid 1970s Model Railway Constructor articles about “Clochemerle” I believe it was called. Forgive me if my spelling of this layout isn’t quite right.

Cheers,

John E.

[Andy Hayter]

I will see what  can do when it warms up a tad John.

 

Yes Nick Wood has a lot to answer for with Clochemerle - or Clochemerle-en-Beaujolais as it was originally entitled.  It was his article in the Constructor in early 80s that got me to look at the PLM - only to find that France's main model railway producer (Jouef) had just gone bust (not for the last time either).   Despite that I pressed on - perhaps something of a blessing which forced me to seek out second hand and somewhat off-beat items.   I discovered for example the joys of Playcraft wagons, which with a bit of work on the bogies and new wheels scrub up rather well as TP wagons.  Back then I made the mistake of fitting spoked wheels throughout.  This is not completely wrong but as delivered from the USA they had solid wheels and only received spoked wheels as and when replacement was needed and spoked wheels were what was available.  

[Edwardian]

Funny? Yes. But if you are insufficiently worried yet ...

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

Very late but as promised I have posted some pictures.

 

Because this is strictly speaking later than pre-grouping I have opened a separate thread.

 

 

[Northroader]

Great news, Andy, I’m off over there straight away.

[TT-Pete]

4 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Because this is strictly speaking later than pre-grouping I have opened a separate thread.

 

Found and followed.

[Tom Burnham]

This very fine large-scale model of a Caledonian 2-4-0 was in the museum area at the Richmond Light Railway (mid-Kent) when I went to their annual open day a couple of weeks ago.

[Caley Jim]

This would appear to be one of the Neilson built '98' class, Nos. 466-471, the first as far as I can make out from the number plate, however there are a number of livery inconsistences.  As built in 1868 it would not have had the number plate or 'C crest R' on the tender, but had 'C.R. 466' on an arch at the top of the valance over the front driving wheel and scrolls over the rear wheel.  It wasn't until Drummond's time that number plates were introduced and they were brass with sunken letters and numbers.  It was McIntosh who introduced those with raised letters and a painted background.   The lining, on the other hand is the early style with recurved corners and in this the tender was usually lined as 2 or 3 panels.  By the time it acquired a number plate (but see my comment on the style of this) and tender lettering and crest, it would have rounded corners.  A nice model, but a bit of a mish-mash as far as the livery is concerned.

 

Was there any label on it to indicate its origins?

 

Jim

Edited August 29, 2022 by Caley Jim
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[Tom Burnham]

54 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Was there any label on it to indicate its origins?

 

Jim

No, not that I saw.  I think the owner had just picked up some items he liked the look of - there was also a 15 inch gauge Cagney 4-4-0 (built in America and retrieved from an amusement park in Peru I believe).  The main feature was the extensive 2 ft gauge system and this was just a sideshow...

 

Tom