Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Some of the LSWR coaches did end up on other obscure railways. I'd have to go digging to work out which again but certain Colonel Stephens had a few off them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I hope you will find a photo of a model attached to this post.  Yes, I do know what it is, but wonder whether anyone can work it out.  Quite obviously pre-grouping and, if it helps, none of the class members made it to 1923.

 

Bill

post-11383-0-48653800-1386797174.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve, you have worked out that it is now a 2-4-0 tank, but wrong company.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very close, not a Sondes but a cousin!  Of course, baby is LCDR.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course, baby is LCDR.

 

Bill

I knew that - missed the C out of SECR, which is what I meant to type

 

Martley "F" Class?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the LSWR coaches did end up on other obscure railways. I'd have to go digging to work out which again but certain Colonel Stephens had a few off them.

R.W. Kidner's "Carriage stock of the minor standard gauge railways" (Oakwood Press) might be a good starting point ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, "F" class are the Sondes, which were the re-builds of the Crampton 4-4-0 tank locomotives.  But you are almost there.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,  well done.  Originally four 4-4-0 tender locos destined for Turkey but spare when the order was reduced.  Acquired by the LCDR in 1860 and soon converted to saddle tanks.  Martley rebuilt them as 2-4-0 side tanks in 1872-3 and Kirtley reboilered them in 1886-8, so how much of the original engine survived - probably just the regulator handle.  Pottered around the LCDR then the SECR until the last one was scrapped in 1909.  They looked very similar to the Sondes class except they had square topped tanks, whereas the Sondes had curved tops.

 

So to the model, which is 7mm fine scale.  This was started as a NiAg scratch build by the late Malcolm Parker.  It has been acquired by a friend for the Greenwich Croome Hill project and will be completed by Nick Taylor then painted by Bob Fridd in the glories of the SECR livery.  Baby will then be employed pottering about on GCH, possibly with a rake of vans, mostly built by Malcolm Parker or assisting the phalanx of 0-4-4 tanks on the suburban traffic.  I'm unsure of baby's identity but likely to be 531A ex-Bacchus.   

 

Bill

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just located a couple of KESR photos from circa 1947.  Looks like a LSWR 4 compartment corridor brake third.

They had several. There's a couple of articles on them with some drawings.

 

And of course the PD&SWJR also used them for much of its life. (There are some claims they used NLR coaches but all the photos show only the LSWR ones and all the minutes on the LSWR side show the purchase).

 

Some railways did use ex NLR coaches, but that was generally other LNWR posessions (Furness for example).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,  well done.  Originally four 4-4-0 tender locos destined for Turkey but spare when the order was reduced.  Acquired by the LCDR in 1860 and soon converted to saddle tanks.  Martley rebuilt them as 2-4-0 side tanks in 1872-3 and Kirtley reboilered them in 1886-8, so how much of the original engine survived - probably just the regulator handle.  Pottered around the LCDR then the SECR until the last one was scrapped in 1909.  They looked very similar to the Sondes class except they had square topped tanks, whereas the Sondes had curved tops.

 

So to the model, which is 7mm fine scale.  This was started as a NiAg scratch build by the late Malcolm Parker.  It has been acquired by a friend for the Greenwich Croome Hill project and will be completed by Nick Taylor then painted by Bob Fridd in the glories of the SECR livery.  Baby will then be employed pottering about on GCH, possibly with a rake of vans, mostly built by Malcolm Parker or assisting the phalanx of 0-4-4 tanks on the suburban traffic.  I'm unsure of baby's identity but likely to be 531A ex-Bacchus.   

 

Bill

 

Looks like a very nice model as one might expect given its provenance.  I like the SECR and have built some wagons, but the Wainwright livery has put me off so far.  An option might be to go back to the LCDR with its attractive black livery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the little bits of data I have hanging about (taken 2 days to find it .....) is this extract from the GWR Lecture nad Debating Society meeting in Nov 1920.

 

It is what it says, a (RCH?) census of all wagons at a Station, though Bristol sounds very wide sweeping for the RCH who are very precise with locations for demurrage charges etc.,  - I don't have access to the original of this document and for clarity I have copied it into Excel - If anybody wants a copy, let me know.

 

Click on the image for a bigger view......

I printed this out and took it along to the Bristol GOG show last week and showed it to every one of my customers who said "your models are a little north for me. I model GWR!"  It shocked a few but surprisingly there were still a few that didn't believe it. how do you educate people who don't believe the evidence?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furness Wagon - Although I can't put my hands to examples at present (urgent household jobs need doing, apparently) I seem to recall seeing south of the Thames / Avon divide a lot of Midland wagons in yards or on trains, not all S&D related either.

 

Somebody asked me (at Southampton Show) for details of a photo I published years ago in the HMRS Journal showing pre-group Pigeon Special NPCS train(s) at Weymouth - there were no pre-Southern vehicles in the rakes.

 

Some people have a mind-set and that's it, nothing will deter them.

 

I noted at the above show, I didn't have any LNWR goods stock (bar one brake van) on my LNWR layout (Penlan), though I have 67 LNWR Goods vehicles available ! ! ! ! :locomotive:

Edited by Penlan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a complex subject, and a lot of people don't do research, but rely on gut feeling.

 

I was pleasantly surprised, when reading an accident report in the pre 1914 era, to find a SECR wagon in a train on the CLC from Liverpool to Manchester. How and why it got there I don't know, but it struck me as a good example - and this was before wagon pooling was thought about.

 

The Waleswood accident of 1907 (near Sheffield on the GCR) was caused by a badly maintained NSR wagon. Again, this was long before pooling. 

 

One should definitely have foreign wagons. The only issue for debate is what the proportion should be. To some extent, it depends on the location and traffic. For example, I understand Scottish cattle were brought down to Derbyshire to be fattened for slaughter. Would they have come in Scottish cattle wagons, cattle wagons of the likely Anglo-Scottish carriers (LNWR or Midland) or cattle wagons of the home company sent empty to the north? I don't know, and I doubt anyone else does. But if had a layout set in rural Derbyshire and fancied a Caley cattle wagon, I should go for it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About 30+ years ago I trawled through the Accident reports at Birmingham Archives Office, mainly looking at LNWR accidents to identify wagon numbers. These were then handed over to Peter Ellis of the LNWR Society to enable a few more numbers to be added to the stock lists..  

There were always foriegn stock in the train make up, though I admit I didn't make much of an effort at recording them.

 

However, that is where the idea for my E&WYURly wagon came from. (East & West Yorkshire Union Rly), I also have a WR Van (Wirral Rly). 

Edited by Penlan
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About 30+ years ago I trawled through the Accident reports at Birmingham Archives Office, mainly looking at LNWR accidents to identify wagon numbers. These were then handed over to Peter Ellis of the LNWR Society to enable a few more numbers to be added to the stock lists..  

There were always foriegn stock in the train make up, though I admit I didn't make much of an effort at recording them.

 

However, that is where the idea for my E&WYURly wagon came from. (East & West Yorkshire Union Rly), I also have a WR Van (Wirral Rly). 

There's a drawing in the E&WYUR book of the wagon.  I've always wanted to make one of those as my first posting was Rothwell and I spent many happy hours exploring all the abandoned lines when things were quiet.  As they took cut quarried stone out they could have got all over the place.

 

Jamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some people have a mind-set and that's it, nothing will deter them.

 

I'm sure that's true but there are other factors as well.  In pre-grouping days, when there was little standardisation, it can be a major task just to research the stock of one Company.  Trying to keep tabs on all the variation throughout the Country is, perhaps, a step too far for many people.  Perhaps we need an exchange system for models built by experts in different areas.

 

Of course, there's an easy way out for the GWR modeller - build the broad gauge :)

 

Mike

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The LBSCR was host to a wide variety of "foreign" wagons, apart from its Southern neighbours, judging from photographic evidence.  In particular Midland wagons seemed to get everywhere, and Great Eastern were not far behind, with LNWR not being uncommon.  But there are sightings of Lancashire & Yorkshire, North Staffordshire, Great Central, Hull and Barnsley, Great Northern and North British!  (I am sure there would be GW examples too, but I can't think of any at the moment) Most, admittedly, were seen at Battersea, but there are views of Arundel station with L&Y and GE wagons, and it is hard to get further from Yorkshire than there.

On the other hand, looking at the various splendid panoramas of Midland Railway goods depots that have been published, almost every one of them has at least one wagon from the south, quite often LBSC, but it helps observers that all three companies were fond of raised ends to their wagons, each of a slightly different profile, which makes them stand out from the crowd.  Although the photos may have been taken after pooling arrangements were in place, the LBSC wagons in particular were unlikely to roam too far because much of their running gear was not to RCH standards, and so they might have to be repatriated for any repairs

At the opposite end of the kingdom, there was a fascinating analysis of two views of Inverness yard taken just after grouping which showed a wide variety of stock, including, I think, yet another LBSC wagon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a photo of an E&WYUR wagon that I built in 4mm EM gauge in my blog at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1381/entry-12848-fourth-attempt/   Michael dJS

Another one, any more and there will be more models than there were for real - well perhaps not as my 1917 Railway Year Book states the E&WYURly had 207 Wagons (and 1 Goods Motor?).  Very Nice model Michael. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  

Just as an example of how LBSC wagons could turn up in unlikely places, I have just noticed Kevin's postings of photos at Lincoln taken around 1924 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/30999-lincoln-st-marks-engine-shed/&do=findComment&comment=1334409

In entry #11

(OK it's just after grouping and the stock has been repainted) there is a solitary LBSCR Open A wagon with sheet rail and rounded ends hanging around Lincoln St Mark's loco shed.

Apologies if the font comes out a bit large, for some reason the standard size text suddenly started looking like the fine print at the bottom of a Comet order form, so I had to up it to read it first!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open wagons became common user in 1919, so it is unsurprising that LBSC wagons could find their way to Lincoln. If the photos were taken in 1910 maybe things would have been different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.