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Does anyone know when GWR applied the GWR insignia that looks like additional writing around in gold

I'm not sure what you mean. You might find this site helpful regarding the history of GWR liveries.

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One of the little bits of data I have hanging about (taken 2 days to find it .....) is this extract from the GWR Lecture nad Debating Society meeting in Nov 1920.

 

It is what it says, a (RCH?) census of all wagons at a Station, though Bristol sounds very wide sweeping for the RCH who are very precise with locations for demurrage charges etc.,  - I don't have access to the original of this document and for clarity I have copied it into Excel - If anybody wants a copy, let me know.

I was fascinated to see this post, as I am one of those whose layout is populated solely by the stock of a single company (apart from some private owners). 

 

In order to understand the information more easily, I decided to make a chart from these data.  Penlan kindly sent me a copy of his Excel spreadsheet (many thanks!), which made it easy for me to produce the following graph:

 

post-19820-0-96685000-1391891345.jpg

 

The grey sections of the bars show the numbers of open wagons, the brown shows vans, and the blue, everything else.  It's easy to see that open wagons are the most numerous vehicles, though there are plenty of others as well.  I suspect that, if the census had been taken at the beginning of the century, there would have been an even higher proportion of 'opens', as these seem to have been the dominant goods vehicle throughout the19th century.   Apart from the opens and vans, almost all the other vehicles belonged to the 'home' company (GWR in this case).

 

The distribution between the different vehicle types is easier to see, if their bars are plotted separately, as shown below (the colour code is the same as before):

 

post-19820-0-08962700-1391891719.jpg

 

If we take this census as 'typical' (and, of course, it may well not be!), it gives an indication of how many 'foreign' vehicles we 'ought' to have on our layouts. 

 

Taking the first chart, this suggests that, for every 10 'home' vehicles, we should have 4 or 5 from other major companies, and at least one from each of a scatter of other companies.  From the second chart, we can see that opens should be even more evenly mixed between the 'home' and other companies.

 

I can see that I'll have to start looking for LNWR and MR wagons to add to my GWR layout :)

 

Mike

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Does anyone know when GWR applied the GWR insignia that looks like additional writing around in gold

If you mean the monogram, like that shown on my model of a 19th century tender:

 

blogentry-19820-0-65555400-1386701119.jpg
 
this dates back to the earliest days of the Company.  Early 1st class coaches carried the coat of arms on the sides, as seen in photographic evidence back to 1847.  The entwined monogram was apparently used on 2nd class coaches and below, though I don't know any photos earlier than 1880 that show this feature. 
 
No broad gauge locomotives carried any insignia (no one was likely to confuse them with any other company's engines!) and only a select few standard gauge locomotives carried the coat of arms, in the form of a garter crest on the driving-wheel splashers.
 
The entwined monogram began to appear on tenders from 1889, in addition to the crest on the engine.
 
Mike
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If you mean the monogram, like that shown on my model of a 19th century tender:

 

 
 
this dates back to the earliest days of the Company.  Early 1st class coaches carried the coat of arms on the sides, as seen in photographic evidence back to 1847.  The entwined monogram was apparently used on 2nd class coaches and below, though I don't know any photos earlier than 1880 that show this feature. 
 
No broad gauge locomotives carried any insignia (no one was likely to confuse them with any other company's engines!) and only a select few standard gauge locomotives carried the coat of arms, in the form of a garter crest on the driving-wheel splashers.
 
The entwined monogram began to appear on tenders from 1889, in addition to the crest on the engine.
 
Mike

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Really interested in GWR pre-grouping history, especially the insignia's used between 1835 and 1922

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. Really interested in GWR pre-grouping history, especially the insignia's used between 1835 and 1922

For information on early insignia and liveries, get hold of the book 'Great Western Way'

 

Mike

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Definitely pre-grouping:

 

General Railway Classification of Goods by Merchandise Train.  Dated January 1907

 

Scanned today, hope it is of some use to somebody

 

post-2484-0-57489100-1392146856_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-11549600-1392146883_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-19830900-1392146898_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-95288900-1392146921_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-96877800-1392146942_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-97999200-1392146992_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-11716200-1392147034_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-11011200-1392147075_thumb.jpg

post-2484-0-51615500-1392147090_thumb.jpg

Edited by The Bigbee Line
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I was fascinated to see this post, as I am one of those whose layout is populated solely by the stock of a single company (apart from some private owners). 

 

In order to understand the information more easily, I decided to make a chart from these data.  Penlan kindly sent me a copy of his Excel spreadsheet (many thanks!), which made it easy for me to produce the following graph:

 

attachicon.gifRCH_WagonOwners.jpg

 

The grey sections of the bars show the numbers of open wagons, the brown shows vans, and the blue, everything else.  It's easy to see that open wagons are the most numerous vehicles, though there are plenty of others as well.  I suspect that, if the census had been taken at the beginning of the century, there would have been an even higher proportion of 'opens', as these seem to have been the dominant goods vehicle throughout the19th century.   Apart from the opens and vans, almost all the other vehicles belonged to the 'home' company (GWR in this case).

 

The distribution between the different vehicle types is easier to see, if their bars are plotted separately, as shown below (the colour code is the same as before):

 

attachicon.gifRCH_WagonOwnership2.jpg

 

If we take this census as 'typical' (and, of course, it may well not be!), it gives an indication of how many 'foreign' vehicles we 'ought' to have on our layouts. 

 

Taking the first chart, this suggests that, for every 10 'home' vehicles, we should have 4 or 5 from other major companies, and at least one from each of a scatter of other companies.  From the second chart, we can see that opens should be even more evenly mixed between the 'home' and other companies.

 

I can see that I'll have to start looking for LNWR and MR wagons to add to my GWR layout :)

 

Mike

 

Am I right in thinking this record was taken at Bristol? If so that might explain the number of MR wagons. MR wagons were quite common in southern England before WW1 because the company tried very hard to eliminate PO wagons from their territory – they failed but it did mean a lot of coal was carried in MR wagons, particularly from Bristol area pits. So when you add MR wagons to your GWR layout be sure to fill some of them with coal!

 

 

Richard

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https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gifRCH_WagonOwners.jpg

 

If we take this census as 'typical' (and, of course, it may well not be!), it gives an indication of how many 'foreign' vehicles we 'ought' to have on our layouts. 

 

Taking the first chart, this suggests that, for every 10 'home' vehicles, we should have 4 or 5 from other major companies, and at least one from each of a scatter of other companies. 

 

Mike

 

I don't think your numbers add up here Mike.  The first graph shows that for every 10 GW wagons there are 5 MR wagons and 3 LNWR ones (unsurprising as these were the 3 big companies pre 1923) followed by the small fry.  I can't tell what the total is (possibly add another 8 to give about 16 foreign for every 10 GW) but it seems to me that the total of foreign wagons exceeds the total home company wagons (assuming home is GW).  I don't think you can generalise easily to another "home" railway which was not one of the big 3.

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I don't think your numbers add up here Mike..

 

I entirely agree, Andy. It's important to realise that this is a census taken at Bristol, a large place with many railways, several stations, several large yards and two major railway companies, the GWR and MR. Penlan's post #47 shows that the document covers "...all Depots, Sidings &c..." The dominance of GWR and MR stock is thus to be expected. The substantial number of LNWR wagons is simply explained by the fact that they represent a large part of the longer distance north-south traffic, via the Midland, passing through or terminating at Bristol. What is perhaps more suprising is the low numbers from the remaining Welsh companies and from other parts of the country.

 

One thing is clear, however. Though many people advocate modelling goods stock in proportion to the total numbers owned by the different companies, the distribution of wagons here is nowhere near those figures. This is at a major marshalling centre. The position on branch lines is typically more extreme, rarely will a typical branch goods of the period include more than one or two 'foreign wagons'.

 

There are always suprises, of course. In the Beck & Copsey book, The Great Western in South Devon, there is a 1921 photo of the loco facilities at Exeter. Around the coaling stage there are 5 GWR, 2 MR, 2 LNWR and 2 GN coal wagons visible. Is this just the effect of common user practice, or does it suggest the GWR obtained coal from more distant sources than South Wales?

 

Nick

Edited by buffalo

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I don't think your numbers add up here Mike.  The first graph shows that for every 10 GW wagons there are 5 MR wagons and 3 LNWR ones (unsurprising as these were the 3 big companies pre 1923) followed by the small fry.  I can't tell what the total is (possibly add another 8 to give about 16 foreign for every 10 GW) but it seems to me that the total of foreign wagons exceeds the total home company wagons (assuming home is GW).  I don't think you can generalise easily to another "home" railway which was not one of the big 3.

You are right, of course, and I made a very sweeping generalisation - really just a reminder that 'one company' stock was not the norm at a large depot! 

 

I am pleased to see that my graphical interpretation of Penlan's data was helpful and hope it will be of interest to others.

 

Mike

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There are always suprises, of course. In the Beck & Copsey book, The Great Western in South Devon, there is a 1921 photo of the loco facilities at Exeter. Around the coaling stage there are 5 GWR, 2 MR, 2 LNWR and 2 GN coal wagons visible. Is this just the effect of common user practice, or does it suggest the GWR obtained coal from more distant sources than South Wales?

 

Nick

 

No, I think this just reflects the fact that company owned coal wagons were pooled in WW1 and from then on so you would expect more foreigners to turn up because of this "common user" agreement.  It reduced the empty wagon mileage enormously. 

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No, I think this just reflects the fact that company owned coal wagons were pooled in WW1 and from then on so you would expect more foreigners to turn up because of this "common user" agreement.  It reduced the empty wagon mileage enormously. 

 

I think you are probably right. It's also interesting to note that only two of the GWR wagons are specifically 'loco coal' types, the other three GWR wagons are four plank with sheet rails, as O4 but earlier straight-ended buffer beams.

 

Nick

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