WDLR at Battle of Cambrai

[bkempins]

I ordered a  Hornby and a Branchline Macaw Bolster Bogie Wagons. I was surprised to see that the two cars are very different in size. The Bachmann car is much longer. Can anyone advise me on which of these cars is the correct model to make a WWI era tank carrying flat car? Here is a shot showing the two wagons as a work in progress on my layout.

 

[Kelly]

Loving this. Will keep an eye out for your book.

[jwealleans]

The longer BB is post-WW1, I believe.  I'm not even sure it's Great Western (and therefore shouldn't have been called a 'Macaw').

[PaulRhB]

I'd agree the shorter one is typical of all the photos I've seen. Bovington is quite local and I did a bit or research as I used to work the Signalbox at Wool where the branch to Bovington used to start. The photos I've seen in books and up at the Tank Museum all show wagons like the one with the tank on in your photo, lengthwise anyway

[The Stationmaster]

I ordered a  Hornby and a Branchline Macaw Bolster Bogie Wagons. I was surprised to see that the two cars are very different in size. The Bachmann car is much longer. Can anyone advise me on which of these cars is the correct model to make a WWI era tank carrying flat car? Here is a shot showing the two wagons as a work in progress on my layout.

 

 

The Hornby one is the ex Airfix BBA (BR code) and is basically a GWR Macaw although I'm not sure about the detail authenticity, the Bachmann model is a BBC (BR code) and is longer than a BBA.  GWR Macaw wagons came in a variety of lengths with varying suffix letters to identify the difference.

[Chris hndrsn]

I thought this excerpt from the Railway Correspondence and Travel Society website on WW1 railway wagons used for tank transport may interest you:

 

The second part of Mike's talk dealt with the movement of tanks, by rail. He showed us slides of a variety of specialised wagons, including Rectanks and Warflats. Britain is one of the few countries to transport tanks by rail. Owing to the limited loading gauge it has been necessary to adopt a number of special techniques to ensure that no damage is done to vehicles or structures. During WWI, for example, MkIV tanks were arranged with gun sponsons that could be "wound-in" to fit the loading-gauge. Later, the railway vehicles were painted with a central white line along which the vehicles had to be aligned when loading. Not that tanks were only moved on special WD wagons.

We saw pictures of tanks on ex-LSWR machinery wagons, Low-Macs, GWR "Macaw B"s and the same railway's well-wagons. Also illustrated was a most unusual tank-loading vehicle. This was, what appeared to be, a conventional four-wheeled flat truck, but with one pair of wheels, with axle, which could be removed. Lowering the unsupported end to the ground created a ramp up which tanks could be loaded onto their special train.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Hendo

[Chris hndrsn]

You should also have a look at this article http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?38180-David-Fletcher-Tanks-and-Trains&s=15c67edc8d6239636340ff7787018bdd

[Chris hndrsn]

Bernard,

 

There are some good images of the Macaw B as modified for tank traffic here http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-gwr-macaw.htm

 

 

Cheers,

Hendo

[bkempins]

Thanks for the info. That did clear things up.  I will use the bogies from the Bachmann car on a scratchbuilt chassis based on the shorter Hornby wagon. I would prefer to just buy another Hornby or two, but they seem to be quite hard to get.

[velotrain]

I wasn't allowed to copy and paste from Word (or even plain text), so am sending this as an attachment.

 

If you'll allow a constructive comment on the townscape, I'm modify the broken edges of the structures so they don't look so much like intentionally "ruined" cast resin.

 

Charles

Cambrai for RMweb text.txt

[Mike Bellamy]

Charles

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I looked at the lead photo of this thread, I knew I had seen others of the same scene.   Although these tanks are indeed headed for Cambrai, they have just been loaded at what was known as Plateau Station.

 

"The Plateau railhead was positioned close to both Central Workshops"
from:  http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109712

 

Here is a close-up shot of the first Warflat wagon, with a steam engine coupled to it:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/300826450080297153/

 

Loading the train with a cribwork ramp:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/300826450080297159/

 

Some of the wagons (I presume the rear row) are clearly of a truss-rod type, and they would buckle under the weight of the tanks - especially where the leading edge of the tracks also carried all the weight of the projecting rhomboid nose.

 

Two tracks of Mk IV tanks at Plateau Station:
http://media.tipsimages.it/MediaNews/Logo/MRE00132656.jpg

 

The originals of (most of) these images are in the Imperial War Museum collection, but you must register before you can view them there; link on the pinterest screens.

 

[Chris hndrsn]

These two images from the Australian War memorial site will be of interest. They show tanks loaded on 40 ton War Department Parrot wagons in France. I also read earlier in the thread someone writing that the RECTank wagons were kept in the UK, that is not true as once the cross channel ro-ro ferry service began in February 1918 tanks were not cross loaded to ship. Second as the French could not supply sufficient wagons many wagons of all types were made, or borrowed, and shipped to France.

 

The pics

 https://www.awm.gov.au/view/collection/item/P10221.014/?person_id=

 

 https://www.awm.gov.au/view/collection/item/P10221.013/?person_id=

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

With regards to "Plateau" station/yard it was on the high ground East of Albert, this thread on the Great War Forum will add much detail for anyone interested in how they got the tanks forward for the Battle of Cambrai.

 

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

Bernard,

 

Being a bit of a pedant on this, when you publish your book please don't make the mistake many have been doing for 40 years in referring to the Light Railway system as the "War Department Light Railways". The light railways were originally operated by the Railway Operating Division of the Royal Engineers, but once it started expanding it was moved under control of GHQ BEF answering to the newly created Director of Light Railways at General Headquarters British Expeditionary Forces, France. The WD seems to be a mistake by Davies in his 1960's book, about page 50 from memory, where he is referring to the light railways and then slips into the abbreviation WDLR. The WD simply signifies that the item was made for the British War Department and the W /|\ D symbol adorned everything from clothing to rifles, trucks and railway carriages, as you can see from my post on the Parrot wagons. Each of the nations in the British Empire had there own version of the /|\ symbol, Australia's being D/|\D, I imagine Canada's was C/|\D and until the symbol was officially struck out, it was a good way of preventing theft.

 

Cheers,

Chris

Australia

[Chris hndrsn]

Bernard,

 

You may also be interested in some detailed images of preserved Hunslet 4-6-0T #306 at the Australian War Memorial http://www.awm.gov.au/view/collection/item/REL29508/

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[bkempins]

Thanks for the replies. It has been helpful. If you are interested, the US 11th Engineers Unit History has a detailed account of the movement of tanks from Plateau to the Cambrai tank ramps.It includes a copy of the formerly secret operations order for the mission.

 

I was able to borrow a copy from the US Library of Congress. I will include some of that information in my book. 

[velotrain]

Chris - what would go a long way toward helping bring WDLR into reduced usage, is suggesting something else for folks to reference these railways by.  You provide the organizational history, but no alternate name; "Light Railway system" doesn't necessarily indicate the era and country being referenced.  It doesn't need to be snappy, but short and/or relatively easy to say will help encourage adaptation.  One benefit of WDLR is that (perhaps due to the past 40 years of usage) it immediately signifies to all, "British and Commonwealth Light Railway in WW1".  I suspect that not using that name/acronym in one U.S.-published "book" will have very little impact, so if you're truly serious about making a change you might come up with an alternate - and then argue your case with the folks at www.wdlr.org.uk   I mean no offense to Bernard by the quotes, but my experience of Kalmbach "books" is that they're magazine format, but somewhat thicker and use a stiffer cover-stock.

 

Also, some 10 days ago I had noted the discussion of the Macaw wagons and started a thread called GWR Macaw bogie bolster wagons.  I mentioned there were suggestions on this thread that the Hornby was the better starting point to model these, but several guys concurred that the Bachmann model is far closer physically - even if B-mann presents it as a much later wagon.  After looking at a lot of images and other material, I had to agree.  Here are a couple of references that helped to sway me:

 

Wikipedia:  " The J-series was for bolster wagons . . . For example, 45 feet (14 m), 30 ton bogie vehicles were coded 'Macaw B"

 

Connoisseur Models:  " Macaw H  Bogie Bolster - These light 20 ton 35 foot bogie bolster vehicles were built by the GWR from 1927 onwards"

 

The B and the D appear quite similar, with the exception of the latter using additional angle iron.  I can't decide if the truss pieces they replaced were bar stock, or some sort of box structure.

 

Happy Holidays to all -

 

Charles

[bkempins]

Here is a shot from the IWM showing tanks being withdrawn from Fins after the battle of Cambrai. There are several others showing different views of this scene.

 

 

[velotrain]

Bernard - nice work on the fascine and the unditching rail - the tank looks quite convincing. 

 

Thanks for the Fins photo - I hadn't seen any post-battle images before.  Were the ramps at Plateau and Fins basically identical - as you've modeled it?

 

Here's a shot of a flat car deck sagging quite a bit during loading, with one of the officers seeming concerned.

[bkempins]

Yes, it appears that the ramps at Plateau and at the unloading points were the same. The unit history of the 11th Engineers has a lot of detail on these.

The following is an OCRed text extract from the 11th Unit History. 
 
About the middle of October orders were received from
Major Hickes, the A. R.C.E. at Peronne to put six stub end
t racks in Plateau yard in first class condition and to see t hat
all switches in the yard were in good working order. This
order was followed on October 27 by the plans and detailed
instructions for t he construction of ramps at the end of each
of t he six tracks.  These ramps were to be
used in unloading and later in reloading the tanks to be concentrated
at Plateau.  They were to be 18 ft. wide and 8o ft.
long, of which forty to fifty feet were to be inclined, and of
sufficient height to bring the top of the ramp level with a
car floor. They were to be of cribwork to be built of t he
ordinary 5 in. x 10 in. x 9 ft. ties, 547 ties to each ramp.
The bottom courses were toe-nailed together with spikes
and the three top courses were bolted together with 7/8 in.
drift-bolts.

The instructions called for a detail of 12 carpenters and 6o
laborers for each ramp. These men were supposed to complete
one ramp in a day. As the ties used were nine feet long
the simplest way to construct a ramp seemed to be to make
it in two sections nine feet wide. This was the method outlined
in the plan but after the first ramp had been built it
was decided to cut some of the cross ties and interlace the
whole mass together. This change did not delay the work
but did increase materially the strength of t he ramps. The
first ramp was started on October 28 and one was built on
each succeeding day until the whole six were completed.

 

(these were built by D Company 11th Engineers)
 
Further in the document it says:
 
1. All material for ramps will be distributed at stations
on Monday, 12th November. Special sleepers and
small parts will be left on trucks near site. Tools and
articles likely to be stolen will be handed over to R.O.D.
or R.T.C. for safe custody. This work will be arranged
by Captain Lobban R.E.
2· Material for Bertincourt and New Heudicourt
will be run out on Tuesday, I3th instant. The former
during the day, the latter after dark. C.O. 11 th Engineers
U.S.A. will detail officers and men to carry out this
work. This material will be stored at Ytres and Sorel
respectively until required.
3· The foundations for Bertincourt and New Heudicourt
will be prepared on Tuesday, 13th instant. The
C.O. 11th Engineers U.S.A. will detail officers and men to
carry out this work.
The building of the ramps will commence first
thing on Wednesday morning, 14th instant, and must be
completed entirely during the day.
C.O. 11th Engineers U.S.A., will detail officers and
men to build ramps at the following sites: -
Bertincourt   1 single
Ruyaulcourt  1 double
Sorel                 2 single
Heudicourt    1 single
New Heudicourt  1 single
 
 
O.C. 3rd R.M.R.E. will detail officers and men to build
the ramps at:-
Ytres    2 single

5· After the ramps at Bertincourt and New Heudicourt
are finished they will be camouflaged and kept
covered except during use until dismantled.

At these two ramps warning posts will be erected at
400 ft. and 750 ft. from the face of ramp. On these
posts lamps wlll be placed by R.O.D. as warning drivers
of distance of ramp.
 
On the train being placed in position at ramp, the
officer and men detailed for the duty by Major H ICKES
will fix the "T" piece supports. When this operation is
completed report will be made to the R.T.O. in charge
of entrainment point who will inform Tanks Officer.
The Tanks Officer will then take entire charge and entrain 

his Tanks, reporting completion of entrainment to
R.T.O.

The R.T.O. will then arrange for the removal of "T" 
 -piece supports and see that all are loaded on train
with necessary wedges for use at entrainment points.
The R.T.O. will inform O.C., R.O.D. when the
train is ready to move and O.C.,R.O.D. will then take
over and control all movements to detraining point.
This procedure will be repeated during detrainment and
back to PLATEAU.
[The abbreviations R.T.O. and O.C.,R.O.D. mean the
railway transport officer and the officer commanding, Railway
Operating Division. The word "truck" as used here and
in the following secret order refers to the railway cars.Historian.]

 

(Company B and F did that work.)

 

 

If you want to learn more about the tank unloading at Cambrai, I recommend you get a copy of the 11th Engineers Unit History.

 

Like all good engineers, the US engineer units in WWI left very detailed unit histories. I have read the histories of several RR units namely the 11th, 12th, 16th, 21st , and a few non-RR units  (20th - forestry, 26th and 27th-Construction ) histories. Most are available for free from the internet archive (except the 11th's. That I borrowed from the US Library of Congress). Many infantry and artillery regiments wrote unit histories too. I guess it helps answer the, "What did you do in the war, Daddy?" question. In any case, the RR unit histories are good sources of what the military RRs were doing during the war.

[velotrain]

Does anyone know just what the "T" piece supports were? 

 

Being designated as riding with the tanks/train after loading, suggests that they were required for unloading, but not available with the pre-constructed ramps at the "detrainment" points..

 

 

Also - I'm curious about the decking on the Macaw cars as shown in the shot at Fins.  There are also closer views of this at the site with the Macaw tank carrying wagon photos.  Some 20 transverse strips, perhaps 2" x 4" - although I can't be certain of the material, support a steel plate (~1/2" thick) that is a bit (~4-6" ?) wider than the wagon's original decking.  The primary reason was likely to provide a little "wiggle room" for steering the tank, but this would also protect the original wood deck, and perhaps help distribute the tank's weight over a wider area.  Does anyone have specific info on these, particularly the material of the cross-strips?  Wood seems likely, but I wonder if it might have been a hardwood?  The third photo from the bottom on the Rail Album site has good details, and indicates that there was a smaller piece of steel - perhaps welded to the wagon - used to position and secure the cross-strips.  The steel plates were apparently notched at the ends - for some unknown reason.  I don't think any of the available photos provide an angle to see if there was any fastening done through the steel plates.

[bkempins]

Does anyone know just what the "T" piece supports were? 

 

Being designated as riding with the tanks/train after loading, suggests that they were required for unloading, but not available with the pre-constructed ramps at the "detrainment" points..

 

 

Also - I'm curious about the decking on the Macaw cars as shown in the shot at Fins.  There are also closer views of this at the site with the Macaw tank carrying wagon photos.  Some 20 transverse strips, perhaps 2" x 4" - although I can't be certain of the material, support a steel plate (~1/2" thick) that is a bit (~4-6" ?) wider than the wagon's original decking.  The primary reason was likely to provide a little "wiggle room" for steering the tank, but this would also protect the original wood deck, and perhaps help distribute the tank's weight over a wider area.  Does anyone have specific info on these, particularly the material of the cross-strips?  Wood seems likely, but I wonder if it might have been a hardwood?  The third photo from the bottom on the Rail Album site has good details, and indicates that there was a smaller piece of steel - perhaps welded to the wagon - used to position and secure the cross-strips.  The steel plates were apparently notched at the ends - for some unknown reason.  I don't think any of the available photos provide an angle to see if there was any fastening done through the steel plates.

I think the "T" are temporary jacks or braces used under the car ends. 

 

The decking arrangement has me stumped too. Best bet may be to model the side view that we can see and leave  the top plain. But I can't believe the top deck was metal. A latter Army manual expressly prohibits metal on metal contact when loading vehicles. For example bull dozers can not be loaded on steel deck cars.  Trying to load metal tracked vehicles on a metal deck would be very difficult.

[velotrain]

Unfortunately, none of the available photos of the loading at Plateau show what might be the "T" piece.  They are clearly using maybe three 4x4 beams as "anti-sway" bracing on each side.  I just noticed the forms loaded at the ends of the tanks in the photo at the below link, and these are likely the referenced "T" pieces.  I suspect these were used until they later realized that the screw-jacks against the rails were the best solution.

 

 

 

Given the thinness, I can't believe that the added decking is anything other than steel.  Is this manual you mention perhaps written post-war?

 

This decking is quite consistent on all the cars shown at  http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-gwr-macaw.htm

 

However, the one labeled "GWR Macaw D number 84401 with reinforced trusses undergoing a load test at Swindon Works", has continuous cross-boards above the bogies.  I don't understand this, as it obviously won't create any less weight on them, and would only serve to spread the load more evenly across the original decking - the spacing on the final design only confirms that this denser spacing provided no benefit.

 

 

 

Do you know the purpose of the staggered wider boards (ties?) on the loading ramp?  It looks like you included these, but I can't be certain based on your photo.  I know you provided the official specs, but the ramps at Plateau seem to have deviant flat sections.  Were there any plans/drawings?

 

 

[TheQ]

The longways boards ae probably here to stop the tracks chewing the tops off of the buffers, if you look at the photos the longways plank Macaw has round buffers level with the deck, the photo below it has oval buffers below the deck level, the photo above also appears to have buffers below deck level.

The Q

[velotrain]

Right, and/or breaking them - but I don't know why you thought that is what I was commenting on.