Can anybody help?

[Faza]

Hiya folks,

 

I posted a layout idea in the layout section a few weeks ago, and with the help of forum members it was tweaked etc (then completley redesigned after all of that), however I'm still stuck with what signals go where... Lol

 

The finished idea is completley unprototypical, but hey, it looks fun

 

It's nothing special, just the standard newby N gauge GWR terminus, thinking medium sized town.

 

Anybody able to help?

 

 

The turntable (before anyone asks), is purely because I want to run some larger locos on it (Farish Castle for example) and from what I've seen they don't have means of adding a front coupling easily.

[Chris116]

An interesting plan but before we go any further can I ask one question?

 

Is that a diamond crossing / single slip / double slip ???

 

I think the layout would only work with a double slip!

 

Chris

[Faza]

Sorry Chris, it is a double slip. Thinking may have been and better idea to use a lighter colour for the track sections!

 

Faza

[Chris116]

Sorry Chris, it is a double slip. Thinking may have been and better idea to use a lighter colour for the track sections!

 

Faza

A double slip makes for a very interesting layout as you have a loop for both passenger trains and goods services. The two sides of the station can be worked at the same time with only the double slip being used by both sides.

 

You will of course have far too much going on for the average single track branch but "It's my layout and I will do as i want" applies to many very good layouts!

 

You will need to wire the double slip carefully so you don't have it causeing problems with two engines in action at once but apart fom that enjoy. I have assumed in all this that the blue track is the passenger side and the green the goods side! If that is not right then you have a major station at the end of a single track and maybe it would be wise to make the green siding into the up road and put in an extra crossover for double track running or make out that the crossover is the far side of the bridge in the fiddle yard!

 

I look forward to seeing how you get on with this project.

 

Chris

[Faza]

Hi Chris,

 

You're spot on with your assumption, I've got an idea how to wire it up so I can use both sides of it at the same time

 

This where the signalling issue comes in, I haven't got a clue how to even begin signalling it!

 

I'm currently in the process of buying the remainder of the turnouts I need (when the hell did Peco become so expensive! lol), then I'm ready to go, keep on eye on the layout section for updates after the end of Feb

[Chris116]

Hi Chris,

 

You're spot on with your assumption, I've got an idea how to wire it up so I can use both sides of it at the same time

 

This where the signalling issue comes in, I haven't got a clue how to even begin signalling it!

 

I'm currently in the process of buying the remainder of the turnouts I need (when the hell did Peco become so expensive! lol), then I'm ready to go, keep on eye on the layout section for updates after the end of Feb

 

Once I work out how to draw something and then include it in a post I will try to give you a few tips on the signalling. Should be able to do it sometime tomorrow as I am off work.

 

A quick rule of thumb is that you will need a juction signal coming into the station to show the drive which route he is taking but this could be the far side of the bridge/tunnel in the fiddle yard. It certainly does not want to be too close to the first point!

 

I have to get back to work so will give some more later this evening or tomorrow!

 

Chris

[Faza]

Nice one, cheers Chris and have a good night

[flyingsignalman]

Once I work out how to draw something and then include it in a post I will try to give you a few tips on the signalling. Should be able to do it sometime tomorrow as I am off work.

 

A quick rule of thumb is that you will need a juction signal coming into the station to show the drive which route he is taking but this could be the far side of the bridge/tunnel in the fiddle yard. It certainly does not want to be too close to the first point!

 

I have to get back to work so will give some more later this evening or tomorrow!

 

Chris

 

 

The home signal, for arrivals from the fiddleyard, with three arms (one for the bay, one for the main platform and a smaller one for the goods yards) could be as close to the points as is necessary. It would usually, depending on sighting, be about 20 yards from the toe of the points due to the presence of the facing point lock lifting bar between the signal and the points.

 

At the end of the platforms you could have either two seperate post signals or a bracket signal with two arms, one for the bay and one for main line departures.

 

The crossover by the station building would be either worked locally by a ground frame released from the SB and have no signals associated with it or from the box and would then have a disc signal at either end of it.

 

The exit from the goods yard by the double slip would have, in later years, a disc reading to the main line; it would be passed at danger for moves to the head shunt from the goods yard.

 

At the exit of the layout to the fiddle yard there would be an advanced starting signal.

 

I'm on my laptop at the moment so I can't attach a diagram but I hope the above is understanderable. It represents the minimum needed, you could calling on arms under the home signals to the bays and maybe a shunt ahead signal under the advanced starter. An outer home signal (if provided) would bo "off scene" in the fiddle yard.

[Faza]

Thanks for the help as well Keith.

 

All of that makes sense, however, the home signal with 3 arms, is this what it is? http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=120

 

Faza

 

 

[Chris116]

Thanks for the help as well Keith.

 

All of that makes sense, however, the home signal with 3 arms, is this what it is? http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=120

 

Faza

The signal you have shown is a junction with two roads, one of which has a distant signal to warn of the next signal within the controlled area. What has been suggested is a signal with three posts each of which have an arm that is like the two red arms on the signal you found (the yellow arm is the distant aspect).

 

I agree completely that the signal can be very close to the toe of the first point but it can also be moved further away and if there is a bridge close by then it could well be on the far side of that bridge.

 

The other way to go is to have a two post signal like the one you saw but without the distant arm for the two passenger roads and have shunt signals (sometimes called ground signals, disc signals or "dummy's") for the goods road. The shunt signals have a small round discs that are white with a red bar across them, the disc turns through 45 degrees to show a proceed aspect.

 

If you want to really have the signals correct for a GWR layout I would suggest that you either buy a book on Great Western signalling or if you have a Western leaning Preservation Society nearby then go and have a look at their signalling and try to speak to some of the signalman on the line.

 

While all signalling performs the same basic job of stopping two trains trying to use the same bit of track at the same time the exact method of doing it and the look of the signals varies a great deal between the different companies of the pre grouping era. The Big Four had their own methods based on whet the constituent companies had done but many areas right up to the end of BR steam were still using pre 1923 type signals.

 

Chris

[flyingsignalman]

Thanks for the help as well Keith.

 

All of that makes sense, however, the home signal with 3 arms, is this what it is? http://www.pdmarshmo...uct.php?pid=120

 

Faza

 

 

 

 

Not quite, the arms would be on three seperate posts, the middle one highest for the main platform, the left hand one slightly lower for the bay line and on the right slightly lower again for the loop line.

 

The yellow arm in the pic is a distant and wouldn't be used.

[Chris116]

On the PDMarsh site have a look at B305. That is a three road signal.

 

Chris

[Faza]

Thanks Chris and Keith, B305 in now book marked

 

I quick google search has found a cracking site with examples of what was used, so that should make it a bit easier now you've both said where they go! Lol

 

And cheers for the book suggestion (never even thought of that), seeing what I can find at the mo (I'm in S-O-T so GWR preservation round here is a rare ).

 

Faza

[The Stationmaster]

 

Sorry to pick on Flying Signalman's admirable post but as it is the best and most comprehensive answer it is the optimum one to use to translate things into GWR practice - which was rather individual in signalling as in many other things. Sorry no pics or drawings.

 

The home signal, for arrivals from the fiddleyard, with three arms (one for the bay, one for the main platform and a smaller one for the goods yards) could be as close to the points as is necessary. It would usually, depending on sighting, be about 20 yards from the toe of the points due to the presence of the facing point lock lifting bar between the signal and the points.

 

Usual GW practice was to place the signal fairly close to the point toe (partly a consequence of using very long wheelbase coaches which could result in very long locking bars if the signal was in rear of the points) but as FS has noted sighting (i.e how a Driver sees the signal) is an important consideration in where it is sited.

 

At the end of the platforms you could have either two seperate post signals or a bracket signal with two arms, one for the bay and one for main line departures.

 

While the GWR did use brackets in this manner it was unusual at small termin and two single post signals would be preferred, both of them most likely on the right hand side of the line to which they applied.

 

The crossover by the station building would be either worked locally by a ground frame released from the SB and have no signals associated with it or from the box and would then have a disc signal at either end of it.

 

It would be very unusual - if not unheard of - for a GW release crossover in this position to have a disc signal at the non platform road end of the crossover, even in BR days. It's also quite likely in the GWR period that a disc signal would not be used (if the crossover is worked by the 'box) at the platform end of the crossover but a very old fashioned type of rotating lamp indicator worked by the points would be there instead - something a bit different and very GWR

 

The exit from the goods yard by the double slip would have, in later years, a disc reading to the main line; it would be passed at danger for moves to the head shunt from the goods yard.

This is a difficult one on GW practice partly because of that double slip being there - most likely would be a disc signal from the platform release road and probably a semaphore (with a white ring on the arm) reading from the yard. It's possible that the semaphore would have a disc signal next to it to read to the headshunt.

 

As FS says in later years the yard exit would be signalled by a ground disc but in GWR times pre-war it would probably have been a double disc (one above the other) - one to go out to the main line and the other to go towards the headshunt. If you come across anything about 'yellow' ground discs just ignore it - they were never used by the GW and didn't appear in its former territory until the early 1950s.

 

At the exit of the layout to the fiddle yard there would be an advanced starting signal.

 

Yes, and it might even have a smaller arm with a large letter 'S' on it to permit shunting movements to pass the signal if they were too long to shunt without going beyond it as FS has noted below.

 

I'm on my laptop at the moment so I can't attach a diagram but I hope the above is understanderable. It represents the minimum needed, you could calling on arms under the home signals to the bays and maybe a shunt ahead signal under the advanced starter. An outer home signal (if provided) would bo "off scene" in the fiddle yard.

 

Calling On arms were used by the GWR but seem from photographic evidence to have been a fairly rare commodity at branch termini.

 

A very useful book to get - especially in terms of illustrating signals - is 'Great Western Signalling' by Adrian Vaughan published by OPC, although original copies can be rather expensive on the second hand market and it is tending to otherwise show its age as it was written a long while back. But still a sensible choice for someone modelling the GWR.

[phil-b259]

How about this

[Chris116]

A very good answer there Stationmaster. I am sorry that I have been rather busy the last 24 hours and could not put in the time to be more helpful.

 

Is S-O-T Stoke on Trent or Stockton on Tees? Both rather a long way from places like the South Devon and Bodmin lines that might have helped you!

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

How about this

 

Why all the STOP boards by the release crossover ground frame? That would be a very modern, and largely unnecessary, idea.

 

And as already noted there needs to be a splitting signal for the Home signal.

[phil-b259]

Why all the STOP boards by the release crossover ground frame? That would be a very modern, and largely unnecessary, idea.

 

I put them in only for guidence really as I have no idea what the GWR would have used in the ground frame scenario, other than I would have thought there would have been some sort of stop marker / information board in the area.

[The Stationmaster]

I put them in only for guidence really as I have no idea what the GWR would have used in the ground frame scenario, other than I would have thought there would have been some sort of stop marker / information board in the area.

 

There would be nothing at all in the way of boards etc for a GF operated crossover of that sort, there's no need as anyone making moves would be under the control of a Shunter and he would make sure there were no conflicting movements.

[flyingsignalman]

Here's a sketch I've done bearing in mind Mike's comments

 

[The Stationmaster]

Spot on Keith

 

Now who can spot one possible slight variation on that (hint to do with something double )

[Faza]

Thanks Phil and Keith that's brilliant

 

Chris, it's Stoke-On-Trent, though I normally get down to Paignton every year for a couple of days (addicted to the Key West complex - cracking view of the Dartmouth ralway from the top of the slides).

 

Now who can spot one possible slight variation on that (hint to do with something double )

Ask the audience???

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Phil and Keith that's brilliant

 

Chris, it's Stoke-On-Trent, though I normally get down to Paignton every year for a couple of days (addicted to the Key West complex - cracking view of the Dartmouth ralway from the top of the slides).

 

 

[/i]

Ask the audience???

 

 

Next visit get thee up to Buckfastleigh to look at signals - well worth the trip for them alone B)

[Faza]

Next visit get thee up to Buckfastleigh to look at signals - well worth the trip for them alone

 

I'll make sure I do, cheers for the tip, not been Totnes since I was about 16 (bou 11yrs) so good excuse for another visit

[Grovenor]

Spot on Keith

 

Now who can spot one possible slight variation on that (hint to do with something double )

Well, in view of there being a loco shed in the yard I would have a shunt signal to stop locos trundling out of the headshunt when 10 is reverse.

Not sure what the Western would have done but in ex LMs territory it would most likely just lock 10 and with 10N could pull off both 9 and the new one together so the shunter could play around in the yard without bothering the Bobby.

Regards

Keith