Wakefield Westgate in 'N'

[RBE]

I understand the process. I just feel that there are factors at work where 'extra money' is being added. The OO Hornby dvt being a perfect example. Double the cost of an expensive coach for what is 98% a coach to begin with. A couple of quids worth of lighting kit added. DCC sound is another which I will never accept as fairly priced. I understand the industry I just cant get past the frankly crazy cost Im facing simply to buy a rake of wagons.

[Revolution Mike]

I agree to some extent, don't see why wagons should cost almost the same in n as they do in oo.

 

Simple - material costs are not that much of the retail price, much of the price is development and tooling.  That cost can be spread over many more sales in OO than N.

 

 it takes no more cost to cast a finely detailed model to a coursely detailed one.

 Except that isn't true at all. The more accurate you want it the better the research has to be, then the more separate detail you want then parts need extra tools and more assembly.

[MrSimon]

Hello

 

What annoys me is when I'm looking for old tankers or container flats or coaches that I know I'm going to detail and repaint and butcher around and places are selling unboxed tankers etc that are almost as old as I am, with pizza cutter wheels, buffers/end steps missing, bad paintwork, sometimes the old flat couplings, and caked in stinky dust for £15.00 a pop because that's a bit less than a new one.  I'd hate to be starting from scratch these days!

 

That class 90 looks really good BTW, excellent work (going to have to get one of those etches!)

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[RBE]

I think red death you misunderstood what I said. I said it costs no more to mould the wagon whether its fine or coarse. The mould cost is the similar whether the brake gear is made thin or fat. Of course to finish it will cost more than a lesser model. It not a case of whether it costs more than a more budget model its the fact it costs what it does full stop. As Ive said the cost of the lesser models is more grating to me. The detail and tooling issues cant be cited here and yet they still ask for crazy money.

[ash39]

Just a sneak preview tonight, as I can't take the masking tape off until I spray the darker grey section tomorrow...

 

 

Just incase anyone thinks I've done it spectacularly wrong, it's 90036 now ! 

[RBE]

Looking good ash. The 90 is one of my fav locos. I have a OO one with Pete Harveys etches on waiting to be finished. Now Ive gone N it may be a while. Be nice to see yours done.

 

Cav

[cornish trains jez]

Looking forward to seeing this one finished Ash. I quite like the livery applied to 90036. Will you be using the speedlink distribution emblems or the EWS ones?

[Swifty11]

Nice layout Ash! Are you still doing your 00 stock?

[jpnewbold]

I think red death you misunderstood what I said. I said it costs no more to mould the wagon whether its fine or coarse. The mould cost is the similar whether the brake gear is made thin or fat. Of course to finish it will cost more than a lesser model. It not a case of whether it costs more than a more budget model its the fact it costs what it does full stop. As Ive said the cost of the lesser models is more grating to me. The detail and tooling issues cant be cited here and yet they still ask for crazy money.

 

Not strictly true. Ignoring the fact that a more detailed mould costs more to design and make in the first place you have to consider that finer details are harder to mould. Plastics are difficult to get to flow correctly and you can get voids, shrinkage, over-packing: all sorts of problems that can mean you throw a lot of finished pats in the bin because they are c*£p. Or, you have to use a better skilled work force rather than a factory in deepest darkest China turning out Spiderman lunch boxes. Or both. Better detailing = better tolerances = more money. You may also need to use better quality materials that are capable of supporting fine detailing. Better materials = more money. Common theme developing, I think.

[RBE]

Oh dear. Its getting silly now. I worked in injection moulding for a while so I am aware of the complex issues etc. Whether its coarse or fine or whatever there is a cost involved, greater to a small degree on more complex items. I get it. That difference in cost over several thousand items is not as meaningful. As I have said and what IS MY POINT is I feel the final cost for a wagon for instance a HAA hopper at about£15 a throw when you need about 30 for a train is crazy money. Its even worse if it is the old tooled models from yesteryear reboxed and yet expected to get todays prices for it. If its the issue of quanity of sales then I would sooner see the likes of hoppers sold in 10 packs in one box for say £60 than having to shell out £10 to £15 per wagon.

[jpnewbold]

Sorry to labour the point but I do not think putting 10 in a box saves much money compared to putting 10 in 10 boxes since the manufacturing batch size will be unchanged. Selling 10,000 wagons per year rather than 250 or 500, on the other hand, would almost certainly make a big difference.

 

So, although £450 for a rake of wagons is a lot of money I think it is the price paid for our interest in a what is, at the end of the day, a niche market.

[RBE]

Im not pitching it as savings from extra boxes Im pitching it as guaranteed extra wagon sales. There would be an incentive to buy more wagons and hence increase sales. What Im suggesting is exactly what your last line said. Selling a few hundred as seperate items at £15. Or sell a few thousand in batches of 10 for less. Thats where savings on bulk buying come from. It makes no sense commercially to sell hoppers and tankers in ones when pretty much all customers will want a full rake. I cant understand why they don't sell bulk packs and offer cost incentives for doing so.

[Revolution Mike]

Cav

 

I think we both agree that the major costs are not materials, but research, the amount of tooling and assembly.  The more detailed the model then likely you need more separate parts ie extra tools (moulds or etches) - all of which means more assembly and all adds more cost. So unless you think the manufacturers are making huge profits off items (I don't) then the choice is between less detailed cheper models and better detailed more expensive models.

 

Your argument seems to be based around what *you* think is a "fair" price, which if I am honest all seems a bit arbitary and random. No one wants to overpay or be ripped off, but just because parts can be moulded for pennies doesn't mean we should be paying pennies to buy them (as the moulding is only a very small part of the total costs).  If we were being ripped off then the opportunity is there for someone to start producing items at a much cheaper cost - it is pretty telling that new entrants to the market haven't been able to do that.

 

Bulk sales are a complete red herring unless you think the cost of packaging is significant.

 

I fear you are coming up against two issues of N gauge - the market is significantly smaller than 4mm and therefore tooling costs can't be spread across as many models and whereas few 4mm layouts have space for full length rakes one of the main benefits of 2mm is that people can run full rakes.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Swifty11]

To be honest non of this argument has much to do with modelling Wakefield Westgate in N. Modelling these days is by no means cheap in any stretch of the word, premium models are at least £75 whereas they where £60 a few years ago. Tooling has improved on models but others they really haven't. I could name models which are a trully extortionate price for what is frankly a crap model! It's £10+ but if I had to name a price I'd say a fiver tops! Bulk buy is a good idea, I mean a pack of 4 models for a cheaper price than it is buy individually is always good. I prefer detailed models as us modellers like detailed stuff but it costs more, as fitting lights etc costs money, and adding additional tooling can cost a bit more money though not to much when adding to wagons or coaches. I'm by no means an expert but surely it can't cost too much to develop something as simple as a wagon...

[RBE]

There are a lot of costs associated with the R&D of a new model Swifty. Generally undertaken by the better paid end of the food chain. The assembly costs are usually these days the domain of peanut paid chinese workforces. The issue for me is that you cant even get the fabled older, cheaper, standard models for a reasonable price. Im currently after a rake of PCAs and for second hand models which arent particularly detailed once postage is on top are still looking at over £10 a wagon. Over 150 quid for a rake of those is hard to swallow. TBH nothing will change as long as models sell for those prices, same with DCC sound. I must be poorer than most modellers I guess. I think maybe we should stay on topic and just clap Ashs great work instead of pursuing pointless arguments.

 

Cav

[roundhouse]

Ash

 

Have you any more photos of progress on your buildings?

 

Ian

[ash39]

Ash

 

Have you any more photos of progress on your buildings?

 

Ian

Ha! Good question. I've been all-consumed by the 90 this week so the buildings haven't had a look in. I'm planning to finish 90036 and then leave the other 90's until I've had time to think about how I can do them better next time. In this time I suppose I should do some work on the actual layout they are intended to be used on !!

 

The grey has been finished tonight. Happy with the finish and no question it looks the part, but there's a few rough edges to sort out. One of the roof fins came off AGAIN with the masking tape, I'm seriously fed up with these and need to think of a better way to stick them on next time! The valance and light grill isn't finished yet either.

 

Transfers were ordered last night. It'll be finished as it was in 2000 so speedlink logos and the non-standard red 'Railfreight Distribution' branding.

 

 

 

 

Still got hard edges around the 'V' in the yellow, I guess it's inevitable with the shape. Doesn't look too bad though.

[cornish trains jez]

Looks great Ash! I know how you feel about the roof fins, I knocked one off my 90 last night and they are even harder to get back on second time around.

[ash39]

Last pics a bit irrelavant now, but I've glazed the lights and added the windows back in to give an idea of how it'll look when it's done.

 

A good comparision between untouched and PH kitted...

 

Looks great head on, can't wait to fit one with lighting

 

A very early idea of how it will look at Westgate

[cornish trains jez]

Hi Ash,

 

Looks great on the layout and its good to see the comparison with the original farish version. How did you glaze the lights?

[ash39]

I used the thinnest clear styrene sheet I could find, can't remember the exact thickness but it was perfect for the job and one sheet will be more than enough to do the entire 50 locos if I decided to! I'm tempted haha.

 

Last night I painted the roof, refitted the roof detail, added the pantograph (after drilling a new hole for it), fitted the etched BR arrows and Crewe electric plaques, and finished the no2 end. When the transfers arrive later this week I should be able to finish it off.

 

 

The farish roof detail is finished in all red. I painted the wires grey and vaccum circuit breaker in white as per the prototype - should look good weathered.

 

 

This was before I glazed the lights, but the no2 end is much neater than the first and backs up the logic that I will get better at these the more I do. Looking forward to the next one!

 

[ash39]

Transfers arrived today. It sure is tricky cutting out 2mm transfers! I wish fox would allow a bit more cutting space between each item.

 

Really pleased with it now. Only downers are I think the upper grey is a touch on the light side, and those pesky roof fins need sticking back on! Once I've stuck them on I'll weather it which will hopefully tone down the grey a bit. 

 

 

[cornish trains jez]

Transfers look great Ash! Where did you get them from?

[RBE]

Putting numbers on in 2mm is mind numbing. Done two locos worth myself in the last week or so. I'm just glad 37688 has full size front numbers!!

 

90's looking great.

 

Cav

[ash39]

Transfers look great Ash! Where did you get them from?

 

They're from Fox. Good quality as usual and the added bonus of having enough diamonds/logos etc to do up to 3 'standard' RfD 90's as well! 90022 beckons...

 

Putting numbers on in 2mm is mind numbing. Done two locos worth myself in the last week or so. I'm just glad 37688 has full size front numbers!!

 

90's looking great.

 

Cav

 

You're not wrong mate, wasn't helped by the fact the pre-made number on the sheet were 90136 so I had to chop out the 1 and add the 0 !! NOT looking forward to adding the miniscule '036' on the cab fronts!