BR Departmental/engineering trains in the late 50's/early 60's

[Dale]

Can any learned folks advise me on the typical composition of an engineering/departmental train that would have been seen in and around the north east at the ed of the 50's and into the early 60's?

 

So far from looking on the Cambrian Kits website it seems like Shark Plough Brakes, trout and Dogfish hopper's, Sturgeon and maybe Mermaid wagons too?  How many and in what proportion of these wagons would make up a small engineering train?  Are these even the right wagons?  What about a crane?

 

Finally what livery would they be in - black?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated and if you have any good links/recommended books, that would be very useful too as i suspect i will be repainting some existing RTR stock (Hornby Trout/Shark and Heljan Dogfish)...

 

D.

[Baby Deltic]

It depends on the purpose of the train. Just about all of the four wheeled ballast hoppers available RTR or as kits were around in the late 50's/early 60's. Catfish, dogfish and mermaids could be used in rakes of one type or mixed rakes. The chute designs were a regional preference; some regions liked to dicharge the ballast between the rails (Southern I think) whereas some regions preferred to discharge the ballast sideways over the rails. The 'trout' hopper was a N E design, so maybe they would be more prevalent in the area in question. Mermaids were side tipping wagons which had to be clamped to the rails, so operationally they may not have been as flexible for ballasting long lengths of new track quickly compared to dogfish or catfish which could drop ballast on the move. A 'Shark' brakevan would have been common within rakes of hoppers so the ballast could be ploughed as it was discharged. Some of the larger bogie hoppers such as the 'Walrus' and the SR bogie designs were also around, but the 'sealion's didn't appear until around 1972. In the late 50's some wagons were still painted engineers' gulf red, although the majority would have been black with straw coloured lettering/numbers. The olive green livery didn't appear until the late 60's AFAIK. If the train is general PW track renewal it might contain Dolphin's, Salmon's, Sturgeons, etc carrying track panels. Grampus's were also an early design of general purpose engineers wagon with removable ends which could carry ballast, spoil, sleepers, signalling equipment, etc. The types of cranes could have been the smaller 16 ton diesel cranes for lifting gantries, etc or a Cowan's Sheldon 75 tonner for footbridges or heavy girders. Track laying wagons had pairs of cranes for slewing the track onto an adjacent alignment. Demounted Coles and Iron Fairy cranes were common on these wagons.

[Dale]

Thanks for the response, food for thought.

 

I envisaged the train being a permanent way train so re-ballasting, track replacement etc

 

So two cranes then... dont suppose these come RTR? 

[Fat Controller]

It would be worth seeking out the relevant David Larkin book, 'Civil Engineers' Wagons, Volume 1' published by Kestrel. This has all the build details for new wagons of the relevant period, along with Regional or Depôt allocations.

I think Mermaids were largely confined to the southern end of the country until the end of the period, and especially to the WR (being a former GWR design). They were used chiefly for dropping ballast from an adjacent track during major renewals.

Spoil wagons would generally have been ex-revenue three or five plank wagons; there'd probably have been significant numbers of pre-Grouping ones at the beginning of the period, then shorter-wheelbase unfitted ones towards the end, as BR tried to make the merchandise fleet fully-fitted.

Old coaches to carry relaying teams would have been more prevalent than in latter days; gangs were larger, as there was little mechanisation and less road transport. The NE  had built an Engineer's brake-van, with accomodation for about fifteen people; the design was perpetuated by the LNER and BR (there were similar vehicles on other regions). Examples of these wagons remained in service into the early 1980s, by this time being used to accompany cranes and other specialised kit.

[Dale]

Any advise on that NE engineer's brake van - kit, RTR, scratch build etc?  Alternatively what kind of coach should i include - gresley suburban?

 

Mr Larkin's book is now on its way thanks to Amazon 

 

D.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Dale

[Fat Controller]

Any advise on that NE engineer's brake van - kit, RTR, scratch build etc?  Alternatively what kind of coach should i include - gresley suburban?

 

D.

There may be a brass kit available (certainly, there used to be one); one of the LNER specialists on here, such as Wordsell or Mallard, might have more gen. Gresley suburbans would be far too modern for the period in question; it would be pre-Grouping stock, on its last legs.

[Baby Deltic]

 

So two cranes then... dont suppose these come RTR? 

Hornby do a version of the Cowans Sheldon 75 tonner. Its not all that accurate, and I think the jib is too short. With a bit of work, a nice model can be made of it.. Dapol do a kit for a 16 ton diesel locomotive crane, although it is on bogies, and I think the real ones are on a rigid eight wheel chassis. Someone on the forum did do a nice conversion of on of these kits, plus a bogie bolster runner. As far as the track layer is concerned, you would have to convert a bogie well wagon and scratch build it. The Triang flatrol is a good starting point. You could buy two of the Coles cranes and remove the chassis and mount the cranes on either end of the wagon, or, if you can find them, two Matchbox Iron Fairy cranes with the wheels removed can be mounted on the wagon.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Baby Deltic

[Dale]

Another question would be 'which sturgeon' as Cambrian kits do 2, one with and one without sides?

 

Another question would be bogies on salmon (no its not a Friday night delicacy) but which type of bogies on the salmon bogie rail wagons; short or long for my north east setting?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Dale

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Dale

 

The LNER ballast brake Brian mentioned can be found http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballastbrake

 

Check out Paul's site for other departmental wagons.

 

Clive

 

Edit ....Forgot to mention D&S used to do a 4mm kit for this van and its NER predecessor, sadly no longer in production. And no you cannot have mine.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[Fat Controller]

Another question would be 'which sturgeon' as Cambrian kits do 2, one with and one without sides?

 

Another question would be bogies on salmon (no its not a Friday night delicacy) but which type of bogies on the salmon bogie rail wagons; short or long for my north east setting?

Go for the Sturgeon with sides; they didn't start shedding their sides for a few years, when they started to be used to carry track panels and also new timbers from Newport Docks to Ditton (for which, a few received stanchions) As for Salmon; the Larkin book I mentioned may be able to help.

Not sure about diesel cranes that early on in the NE; I seem to recollect steam ones at Low Fell into the Eighties; the last had been built in 1954.

[Dale]

The Larkin book has arrived and is immensely helpful, even tells me the numbers assigned to M'boro, Darlo or Lackenby.  I am going to mod a couple of Dogfish with the extra rail around the top for slag...  busy busy busy...

[Baby Deltic]

Volume 2 is out too.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/59205-civil-engineers-wagons-volume-2/

Edited August 8, 2013 by Baby Deltic

[Fat Controller]

Volume 2 is out too.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/59205-civil-engineers-wagons-volume-2/

I hadn't mentioned Volume 2, as the OP was asking about the late 1950s. It was only when I looked again at my Volume 2 that I realised this included a look at on-track plant and cranes from Nationalisation onwards.

[Jamiel]

Thanks for this thread. I was hoping someone had started something on engineers and ballast trains.

 

I am currently making one for my fictitious edge of midland/eastern layout Ellerby, (Wakefield, Sheffield, Leicester-ish), set in the early 60's (although I do have stock to run up to 1980 when I feel like it).

 

It would be a train for re-ballasting branch lines , or even patching ballast on the main line, but not a full rail laying train, just maintenance.

 

I have ordered David Larkin's book (Vol1), which I am hoping will be good reference material.

 

I picked up some Cambrian kits in a sale a little while ago, not the easiest to build, some of the moulding points and how the frame sits together is less than intuitive, but I have almost finished my first Dogfish.

 

I have ordered some Parkside Dundas kits (P15 unfitted Grampus from Ebay x2, PC45 BR 13T Medium Goods Wagon) and a and picked up a Hornby Shark (early black livery - a few still in stick at Lendon's of Cardiff), so I am thinking of the following rake:

 

Dogfish x3

Catfish x2

Grampus x2

13T Medium Goods Wagon x1

Shark x1

 

I am planning it to be in a weathered black livery, but would welcome anyone's input on that (any red ones still around then, or ones gone over to a lot of rust). I would also be interested to hear what locos might pull such a train, or any other wagons that might fit with this.

 

I'll post some photos of progress before too long.

 

Jamie

Edited February 2, 2014 by Jamiel

[TheSignalEngineer]

The medium goods wagon, if ex-revenue earning, would have been in worn grey or bauxite livery depending on whether or not it was fitted. Some were unpainted and a few got painted in engineers livery. It would just have a 'D' prefix to the number and possibly some engineers branding depending on Regional preferences, such as 'DCE Birmingham' and 'EM'. Here's an example from the Signal Box Construction Gang at Crewe. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lms3plankopen/h2d12bd52#h2d12bd52

 

and another converted High belonging to the DCE at Kings Cross http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/h3ca4f47b#h3ca4f47b

Edited February 2, 2014 by TheSignalEngineer

[Fat Controller]

There were some 'Gulf Red' wagons (albeit heavily weathered and faded) in service into the mid 1970s at least; have a look at the current Class 37 thread for a shot of a Dogfish still bearing traces behind a TOPS-numbered 37.

[Jamiel]

TheSignalEngineer:

 

Thank for that. Paul Bartlett's website is a great resource, especially as the photo's are in colour.

The medium goods wagon is the steel sided one, I will have a look through Paul's website for those, but knowing they would have stayed in their revenue earning colours is a very helpful.


Fat Controller:
Weathered Gulf Red would certainly make a more interesting rake than just black. I will track down some prototype photos. The Shark is black, but I am sure when they are all weathered, they will fit together.

Which class 37 thread did you mean, the search brings up dozens of different ones?

Thanks again for you help.

Jamie
 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

TheSignalEngineer:

 

Thank for that. Paul Bartlett's website is a great resource, especially as the photo's are in colour.

 

The medium goods wagon is the steel sided one, I will have a look through Paul's website for those, but knowing they would have stayed in their revenue earning colours is a very helpful.

 

 

Fat Controller:

Weathered Gulf Red would certainly make a more interesting rake than just black. I will track down some prototype photos. The Shark is black, but I am sure when they are all weathered, they will fit together.

 

Which class 37 thread did you mean, the search brings up dozens of different ones?

 

Thanks again for you help.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

Here's the link to the thread:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72757-class-37-photos/page-13 post 314.

The photo is even more recent than I thought, dating from 1990..

[96701]

When I got to work for BR in York in the late seventies, 75 ton steam cranes had been converted to 76 tonne diesel hydraulics and were never part of the Civil Engineering (CE) fleet. The CE fleet when I got there were between 10 and 12 ton cranes, some steam (Grafton, Taylor Hubbard), some Diesel Mechanical (Taylor Hubbard), some Diesel Electric (Taylor Hubbard, Coles, Cowans Sheldon, Jones). All those that were allowed out of depots to lift components out of and into running lines were rigid chassis cranes largely because the technology in those days meant that a rigid chassis allowed travel motion to be fitted so that the cranes were self propelled. 

 

This didn't apply to twin jib cranes (aka tracklayers). Their length precluded them from being on a rigid chassis, hence they weren't self propelled in the sixties. 

 

Also, by the time I got in charge of on track machines in the eighties, the ballast regulators had a ballast brush that could collect excess ballast from the railway and put it in a hopper. Alternatively, we could send the regulator out with a full hopper so it could add ballast to areas where it was deficient. Most of the long trains to deal with track were more associated with renewing the track rather than maintaining the status quo.

[Jamiel]

David Larkin's book arrived, and it is excellent, especially for modelling and how paint and mark the wagons.

There are a couple of things it doesn't cover though, how rakes of wagons were put together, and what was likely to pull them at various times.

Did engineers wagons stay close to their home depot? Were rakes of wagons formed using wagons from different home depots, or even mixing wagons from different regions?

I have the Hornby black Shark, from Stratford, will I need to redo the lettering and numbers to run this on a midland rake, or would it mix with Catfish and Dogfish from the Midland?

What locomotives tended to be used for the engineers trains on different regions?

Obviously all the answers would vary possibly by region and by date, any information on the Midland and Eastern around the North Midlands and Yorkshire would be very welcome.
 

I have seen footage of an Eastern Region B1 pulling a train taking up a disused line near Tadcaster South of York.

Any help would be appreciated.

Jamie

Edited February 15, 2014 by Jamiel

[Jamiel]

I did manage to find a couple of examples of locos pulling engineering wagons. The one below I would guess is a Black 5, although I am not sure.

On Vol3 of the West Riding Steam DVD series, I saw an Stanier 8F pulling a rake of Grampus wagons.

In Apollo's grand day out thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67100-apollos-grand-days-out/page-2
The 9th photo down would appear to show an Ivatt 4MT pulling an engineers train. It is also a fantastic thread for inspiration for lots of other trains.

I would presume that 4F, WDs, Standard class 4s and 5s,  would all be likely candidates for such trains, as well as Class 24, 25, 40 diesels during the early 60's.


Any other suggestions or clarification of the loco above would be welcome.

Jamie

Edited May 16, 2014 by Jamiel

[LMS2968]

It is most certainly a Black Five heading north out of Preston under the Fishergate bridge.

[hmrspaul]

It is most certainly a Black Five heading north out of Preston under the Fishergate bridge.

And the CATFISH  are in Gulf Red, quite a lot of them were delivered new in GR. I like the white walled wheel!

 

Paul

[thegreenhowards]

I've just found this interesting topic, and have a similar question.

 

I'm trying to put together an engineers trains for late 1950's for the GN suburban area.

 

The plan is for a track laying train formed of 1* Shark brake van (Cambrian kit); 1*Sturgeon (Cambian kit); 1 * Dolphin (A1 brass kit), both for track; 2 * Grampus (Parkside) for sleepers; and then some ballast wagons. I bought some Dogfish wagons but on re-reading the Larkin book, I see that these were only allocated to Scunthorpe on the Eastern Region. Can anyone tell me which wagons would have been used for ballast at the south end of the ECML? I'd love an excuse to use the Dogfish wagons, but I suspect more Grampus, some Hornby Trout wagons or even some revenue stone wagons would be more realistic - views?

 

Are there any other vehicles I need to finish a realistic train off?

 

Thanks

 

Andy

 

 

[Fat Controller]

I've just found this interesting topic, and have a similar question.

 

I'm trying to put together an engineers trains for late 1950's for the GN suburban area.

 

The plan is for a track laying train formed of 1* Shark brake van (Cambrian kit); 1*Sturgeon (Cambian kit); 1 * Dolphin (A1 brass kit), both for track; 2 * Grampus (Parkside) for sleepers; and then some ballast wagons. I bought some Dogfish wagons but on re-reading the Larkin book, I see that these were only allocated to Scunthorpe on the Eastern Region. Can anyone tell me which wagons would have been used for ballast at the south end of the ECML? I'd love an excuse to use the Dogfish wagons, but I suspect more Grampus, some Hornby Trout wagons or even some revenue stone wagons would be more realistic - views?

 

Are there any other vehicles I need to finish a realistic train off?

 

Thanks

 

Andy

I think the allocation to Scunthorpe may have been because that was where slag ballast was sourced; the wagons used had 'greedy boards' added to the tops of the sides and ends, as the slag was less dense than stone ballast. They may well have found their way south; in later years, they seemed to turn up anywhere. I wonder if the BR-built version of the Walrus might have been used, as this would have had greater capacity, important if you have to bring your ballast some distance.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'revenue stone wagons' in the period you're interested in; 'earth and stones' was a Cinderella traffic at the time, not really taking off until the late 1960s. Most was carried in hopper wagons, but not of a type suitable for dropping ballast, where a modicum of control over discharge was required.

I had a look on Ernie Brack's excellent photo site, but I couldn't find any photos of engineers' stock in the area you're talking about. Stock would probably be based at Hitchin, which had a big engineer' yard on the Up side until quite recently- look round for photos of there.