BR Departmental/engineering trains in the late 50's/early 60's

[thegreenhowards]

I think the allocation to Scunthorpe may have been because that was where slag ballast was sourced; the wagons used had 'greedy boards' added to the tops of the sides and ends, as the slag was less dense than stone ballast. They may well have found their way south; in later years, they seemed to turn up anywhere. I wonder if the BR-built version of the Walrus might have been used, as this would have had greater capacity, important if you have to bring your ballast some distance.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'revenue stone wagons' in the period you're interested in; 'earth and stones' was a Cinderella traffic at the time, not really taking off until the late 1960s. Most was carried in hopper wagons, but not of a type suitable for dropping ballast, where a modicum of control over discharge was required.

I had a look on Ernie Brack's excellent photo site, but I couldn't find any photos of engineers' stock in the area you're talking about. Stock would probably be based at Hitchin, which had a big engineer' yard on the Up side until quite recently- look round for photos of there.

Thanks for your very prompt response.

 

Ernie Brack's site is great - I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the tip off.

 

What does a greedy board look like - can you point me to any photos?

 

As for revenue stone wagons, I was thinking of Hornby's 26t stone wagon, but I suspect that was much later. So probably something like a 13t mineral wagon. From what you say, that doesn't seem very likely!

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks for your very prompt response.

Ernie Brack's site is great - I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the tip off.

What does a greedy board look like - can you point me to any photos?

As for revenue stone wagons, I was thinking of Hornby's 26t stone wagon, but I suspect that was much later. So probably something like a 13t mineral wagon. From what you say, that doesn't seem very likely!

Sorry, I should have engaged my brain first on the greedy boards. I've found some photos on Paul Bartlett's excellent site. They look like they could be modelled as an addition to the Heljan wagon. However, the questions are:

a) did they get as far south as London as it seems a long way to haul slag!

b) when we're the greedy boards added? There is a picture of a Scunthorpe wagon brand new without greedy boards on Paul's website.

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for your very prompt response.

 

Ernie Brack's site is great - I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the tip off.

 

What does a greedy board look like - can you point me to any photos?

 

As for revenue stone wagons, I was thinking of Hornby's 26t stone wagon, but I suspect that was much later. So probably something like a 13t mineral wagon. From what you say, that doesn't seem very likely!

'Greedy boards' are pieces of plank, or steel sheet, added to the top of a wagon or lorry body when carrying relatively low-density material. Here's some Dogfish with them:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdogfish/h4d0633a#h4d0633a

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdogfish/h358fc91c#h358fc91c

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdogfish/h27b734fb#h27b734fb

Note that the third shot is in Hitchin, so on your patch.

The Hornby 26t stone wagon represents (not very well) a type that would have been in front line service from iron ore quarries at High Dyke and elsewhere at the time. Thus, it's unlikely any would have been borrowed by the engineers. Also, at the time, there was very little mechanisation of ballast and spoil handling, so the sorts of wagons used would be those with relatively low sides, fully openable if possible, In other words Grampus and similar wagons and ex-revenue 3-plank opens.

One type you might have seen was the unfitted version of the SR-designed 'Lamphrey' - http://slimrails.co.uk/index00gauge.html  RC 446

[Fat Controller]

Sorry, I should have engaged my brain first on the greedy boards. I've found some photos on Paul Bartlett's excellent site. They look like they could be modelled as an addition to the Heljan wagon. However, the questions are:

a) did they get as far south as London as it seems a long way to haul slag!

b) when we're the greedy boards added? There is a picture of a Scunthorpe wagon brand new without greedy boards on Paul's website.

All the ballast for your area would have been hauled for some distance; the nearest source of rock suitable for ballast would be either Mountsorrel or Nuneaton. Nuneaton was certainly the source in relatively recent times. The slag would have had a low first cost, being 'waste' from the steel industry; it would probably not have been used on main lines, but on sidings and yards. 

[thegreenhowards]

All the ballast for your area would have been hauled for some distance; the nearest source of rock suitable for ballast would be either Mountsorrel or Nuneaton. Nuneaton was certainly the source in relatively recent times. The slag would have had a low first cost, being 'waste' from the steel industry; it would probably not have been used on main lines, but on sidings and yards.

 

That's very useful. It sounds like I could get away with my Dogfish wagons lettered up for Nuneaton with mainline ballast or fitted with greedy boards filled with slag and lettered up for Scunthorpe.

[Rivercider]

This is a little later, Hitchin South in 1964 with a selection of engineering wagons in the yard behind, a lot of them look like grampus or similar

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28178727@N08/15559544322/in/photolist-mLot2S-qUkBNG-nq2zCa-pqra76-ncSkMT-cf6mwm-nnYHSx-btXSxo-5UfH3Q-a2Z86W-ahKyae-abLgKC-aph5aD-k7mgS-gfthCp-gftgVc-eUwhYY-gft2NN-pGWJry-dunnc1-oL4W4t-nnYydo-rHsbTt-pqrbmk-ozgWr3-bvYpkY-pBZSsv-6jCcWY-bYqaky-bYqaEy-EaoGSb-pkuNvS-BCQc7C-xab68z-5Aiihj-7XHvc3-5AejLM-smq9H1-bPxv58-A6VQcy-DmHbD3-kSXWHa-54k2Z4

 

cheers

[Fat Controller]

This is a little later, Hitchin South in 1964 with a selection of engineering wagons in the yard behind, a lot of them look like grampus or similar

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28178727@N08/15559544322/in/photolist-mLot2S-qUkBNG-nq2zCa-pqra76-ncSkMT-cf6mwm-nnYHSx-btXSxo-5UfH3Q-a2Z86W-ahKyae-abLgKC-aph5aD-k7mgS-gfthCp-gftgVc-eUwhYY-gft2NN-pGWJry-dunnc1-oL4W4t-nnYydo-rHsbTt-pqrbmk-ozgWr3-bvYpkY-pBZSsv-6jCcWY-bYqaky-bYqaEy-EaoGSb-pkuNvS-BCQc7C-xab68z-5Aiihj-7XHvc3-5AejLM-smq9H1-bPxv58-A6VQcy-DmHbD3-kSXWHa-54k2Z4

 

cheers

I wish there was a way to enlarge that photo.. Most vehicles do seem to be Grampus to my eye.

[hmrspaul]

I wish there was a way to enlarge that photo.. Most vehicles do seem to be Grampus to my eye.

It goes large when you use the zoom on your screen. Any internet site can be zoomed in on. There are three ex PO minerals behind two lines of Grampus.

 

Interesting photo,  the far yard appears to only be a head shunt. There was a lot more at that end when Julie and me regularly visited from 1976 through to its closure. Happy memories, and that gap in the low raised side which divided the site from the Main line can still be seen. The whole site is houses now.

 

Paul

Edited November 11, 2016 by hmrspaul

[thegreenhowards]

I wish there was a way to enlarge that photo.. Most vehicles do seem to be Grampus to my eye.

There certainly don't seem to be any hopper wagons of any type which is interesting.

[Ken.W]

An interesting subject not generally well covered. I did turns as secondman on p-way trains in late 70s / early 80s in the NE area. Although later than the period being discussed, stock was still that from the late 50s / early 60s, so workings were probably little changed...

For a track renewal on a double line, trains would be formed for working either from the line actually being relayed, or from the adjacent line.

 

On the line being relayed trains were formed of;

Bogie track panel wagons, Sturgeon, Salmon etc, equal number of loaded and empty;

4 wheel hopper discharge ballast wagons, Dogfish, Catfish, Trout;

Shark ballast plough

 

Working from the adjacent line,

TJTL - the Twin Jib Tracklayer (crane);

A  4 wheel well flat, coveying an excavator (or earlier, bulldozer with bucket shovel), and timbers for unloading it;

Spoil wagons, Grampus, or for earlier period ex goods wagons;

Side-tip ballast wagons, Mermaid

 

Depending on size of the job, they could be split into more than one train to each line.

They invariably worked as unfitted, so a guards brake, which could include the previously mentioned engineers brake, or a shark, often one each end as reversals of direction were common to return from site. In the 50s / 60s riding accommodation would be provided as discussed, by the 70s this had been replaced by the Leyland pway vans. The TJTL would usually have it's own riding / mess / tool van with it still (ex GW toads a favorite for this).

Locos were usually the local goods engines, very little if any of this operated at weekends, this was pre the 24/7 era!!! An e-copy of signalbox opening hours I came across a while ago actually shows most freight lines routinely closed midday Saturday till Monday morning.

 

A summary of the working method would explain the train formations;

The TJTL starts by removing the old track panels onto the empty track wagons;

The excavator / bulldozers unloaded and digs out the old ballast, loading into the spoil wagons standing on adjacent line;

The side tipping Mermaids are then brought alongside to tip ballast to form the track bed, which bulldozer levels;

TJTL then starts unloading the new track panels and placing in position on the new track bed;

Then, the ballast hoppers are brought in to ballast the relayed track, with the Shark plough used to spread the ballast.

 

Finally, after the trains are withdrawn, the Tamping machines go in, independently, to finish off.

 

Once the trains on the adjacent line were finished and withdrawn, Pilotman's (single line) working would often be brought in to run trains on the adjacent line while ballasting / tamping was finished off

[Fat Controller]

There certainly don't seem to be any hopper wagons of any type which is interesting.

It probably depends which day of the week the photo was taken; if it were Monday or Tuesday, then the hoppers would be away at the quarry which supplied the ballast. No virtual quarries in those days.

[thegreenhowards]

It probably depends which day of the week the photo was taken; if it were Monday or Tuesday, then the hoppers would be away at the quarry which supplied the ballast. No virtual quarries in those days.

That makes sense. There may be an excuse for my Dogfish after all!

[Theakerr]

Back in the early days (1950 to 1955) a "gangers train" would consist of what they could get hold of.  I can sort of remember one because it offered a great play opportunity when it was put into the yard at Waltham.  As I remember there were two brake vans, one container wagon with a container on it (for some reason this is crystal clear) a couple or so vans, that held tools and spare parts, a couple or so bogie bolsters (with their single bolster end wagons) carrying lengths of rail and two or three regular bottom hopper wagons plus one bogie hopper wagon that we could actually get up on and pretend to turn hand wheels.  

[Ken.W]

It probably depends which day of the week the photo was taken; if it were Monday or Tuesday, then the hoppers would be away at the quarry which supplied the ballast. No virtual quarries in those days.

That reminds me, as well as the working methods I posted above, the trains were sometimes made up and dispatched on the Friday, and stabled overnight in loops or sidings nearer the worksite ready to start on the Saturday. They were as I mentioned invariably unfitted, so wouldn't get to the site in a hurry

[Rivercider]

Here is a black and white photo of a short engineers train in Wolverhampton in 1965,

pannier 3744, and a pair of toad brake vans sandwiching six miscellaneous opens, at least two of which are engineering types,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/8269124265/in/photolist-dAHqy2-bSRwP8-e3buXi-fSMNni-ntPGgc-9FW7Pu-eQ1Che-fj13uP-dTphTt-iWFvGF-eQd6mA-gpDr99-dbaD32-jbxjLs-cjDMPS-cbj61C-eQ1Cpr-cjE8rS-oXdT9Q-6sRSXr-eQd56b-akuQ1y-9q31FA-bpGWYH-85XTD3-7HRFFh-9LzqJQ-7HRG8N-76yRao-a1eWQ2-85XQAs-d8hi1L-nxHys6-76uWu8-7HRLoy-5dBDf4-dthEds-8PdSuz-6sTR4i-7jbmB3-mjiMka-kmfCmn-7j7sYT-d3Ukn9-dLym95-9tawoX-7XXGg7-g1x1Ro-9sqTdH-bsQEaw

 

cheers

[hmrspaul]

Here is a black and white photo of a short engineers train in Wolverhampton in 1965,

pannier 3744, and a pair of toad brake vans sandwiching six miscellaneous opens, at least two of which are engineering types,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/8269124265/in/photolist-dAHqy2-bSRwP8-e3buXi-fSMNni-ntPGgc-9FW7Pu-eQ1Che-fj13uP-dTphTt-iWFvGF-eQd6mA-gpDr99-dbaD32-jbxjLs-cjDMPS-cbj61C-eQ1Cpr-cjE8rS-oXdT9Q-6sRSXr-eQd56b-akuQ1y-9q31FA-bpGWYH-85XTD3-7HRFFh-9LzqJQ-7HRG8N-76yRao-a1eWQ2-85XQAs-d8hi1L-nxHys6-76uWu8-7HRLoy-5dBDf4-dthEds-8PdSuz-6sTR4i-7jbmB3-mjiMka-kmfCmn-7j7sYT-d3Ukn9-dLym95-9tawoX-7XXGg7-g1x1Ro-9sqTdH-bsQEaw

 

cheers

Can anyone get this link to work?

 

Paul

[Blackthorn]

Can anyone get this link to work?

 

Paul

It worked for me.  Quite an interesting photo.  Hope you can get it to work for you.

[keefer]

works fine for me too

[Ian Smeeton]

Works for me, too.

 

If you are still having problems, Google

3744, Dunstall Park, March 1965

and it is the first two results.

 

Best Regards

 

Ian

[WD0-6-0]

Just spent a short time reading this interesting thread and thought I'd resurrect it.

 

I've recently been given a couple of Bachmann bogie bolster C & A wagons which have (approximately) 40ft track panels on it. I'm sure that 40ft track panels were, at best, unusual and more likely entirely works of fiction but is there any truth in bolster Cs or As being for such traffic? Say on 30ft track panels?

Is it possible they would be paired with some ballast hoppers and a ballast plough?

Thanks

Rhys

Edited October 9, 2018 by WD0-6-0

[Trog]

Just spent a short time reading this interesting thread and thought I'd resurrect it.

 

I've recently been given a couple of Bachmann bogie bolster C & A wagons which have (approximately) 40ft track panels on it. I'm sure that 40ft track panels were, at best, unusual and more likely entirely works of fiction but is there any truth in bolster Cs or As being for such traffic? Say on 30ft track panels?

Is it possible they would be paired with some ballast hoppers and a ballast plough?

Thanks

Rhys

 

While 99% of pre-fab track relaying was done in 60'-0" lengths there were exceptions, if the track was to be relayed over the end of a crane say in a single bore tunnel 30'-0" panels might be used as 60'-0" panels were difficult to handle. I think you could just about do it with a light 24 sleeper softwood panel if you tucked it under the cranes buffers, but hardwood and concrete panels were just too heavy to be held at the necessary radii. I believe the LNER may also have been in the habit of using 45'-0" rails on its minor lines where the track gangs were smaller and getting enough men together to change a 60'-0" rail was more difficult, it would also have allowed the cropping of the old rail ends from rails recovered from their mainlines. So you could have a train in the BR or later era loaded with old 45'-0" panels that just been replaced. I last saw a length of ex LNER 45' railed track as recently as two years ago so there is still an excuse to model it. Although I would expect such panels to be loaded in the middle of a 60'-0" wagon.

 

If during prefab relaying it was necessary to move a joint so it did not fall on an arched bridge or the abutment of a decked one, you might also see a new 45'-0" panel or two, the same could also occur if a job was something and a half panels long. As two 45'-0" panels was better practice than a 60'-0" and a 30'-0", for part panels over 45'-0" a 60'-0" panel would be cut down on site to create the closure panel if against something like S&C, or the first old panel trimmed down if abutting older plain line.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Trog

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember doing temporary bonding up of 30 foot panels in the late 1960s. They were used partly because of crane capacity I believe. The following week the rails would be tipped out as CWR was installed.

 

Regarding 45 foot lengths, I covered jobs on secondary lines where the ends were cut off existing worn rails and they were then re-drilled on site. I seem to remember it was 15 inches off each end, with the minimum remaining length being 45 feet. At the end of the day's work a closure rail would be put in.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Haven't been from Wigan to Southport by rail for about three years but last time there were some sections of recuts out by Burscough Bridge I think it was. Very interesting ride in the Nodding Donkey at full speed.

[Gibbo675]

Haven't been from Wigan to Southport by rail for about three years but last time there were some sections of recuts out by Burscough Bridge I think it was. Very interesting ride in the Nodding Donkey at full speed.

Hi Signal Engineer,

 

As a point of interest, in the 1950's when BR was changing from bullhead to flat bottomed rail the line between Burscough Bridge and Wyke Cop was laid with all of the then different experimental baseplate and rail fixings for testing purposes. The whole section was relaid in about 2005/2008 or there about and so the experimental track fixings must have been quite good to have lasted approximately fifty years. I remember seeing that almost all the rails and base plates were marked either 1956 or 1957. The reasoning for using the line was that it was a secondary route that is long straight and fairly level and it was at the time a 90 mph railway.

 

Gibbo.

[WD0-6-0]

Hi guys

Thanks for your replies, particularly interesting about the 45ft panels, I was aware of 60ft and 30ft but 45ft was completely new to me. I have seen a video from about 1960ish showing the laying of 30ft panels so that continuously welded rail lengths can be laid in their place, similar to what The Signal Engineer described.

I'm still curious as to whether anything like this would have ended up on revenue wagons such as my bolsters. Perhaps as old removed panels off to scrap?

Thanks again

Rhys