Southernman46 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Nice to see a privitised rail company investing in new rolling stock, if only...........! Well, the situation in Wessex for some time now with the on-going "Alliance" has effectively been a TOC take over of the area including infrastructure management in all but name - this is just the next step in cementing their position. The infrastructure mods have been planned for well over 3 years. Sensibly though they've waited for those to be completed before announcing the new trains - unlike Networker where we had to make the infrastructure fit the train........................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Well, the situation in Wessex for some time now with the on-going "Alliance" has effectively been a TOC take over of the area including infrastructure management in all but name - this is just the next step in cementing their position. The infrastructure mods have been planned for well over 3 years. Sensibly though they've waited for those to be completed before announcing the new trains - unlike Networker where we had to make the infrastructure fit the train........................ Waterloo has yet to be sorted out. Platforms 1-4 (main line suburban side) cannot take 10 and cannot easily be extended (if at all). If platforms 21-25 in the international station can be brought back into use, which is not easy as they were not designed for mass commuter flows and there is no concourse, then 2 and 3 could be filled in and 1 and 4 extended so as to make two 10-car platforms there. The approach tracks would need to be rearranged as the layout won't work properly otherwise. Platform 20 in the international station is already being brought back into use in 2014 for SWT. 5, 6 and 7 can take 10 but are all approached through one set of points with no parallel running so they are inflexible at present. The Windsor Lines will be first for 10 car, with the rebuilt 458s, which are currently delayed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Waterloo has yet to be sorted out. Platforms 1-4 (main line suburban side) cannot take 10 and cannot easily be extended (if at all). The Windsor Lines will be first for 10 car, with the rebuilt 458s, which are currently delayed. True - but there is a S&C re-model in the system for the 1500/1501 1502/1503 scissors layout Yes the 3-way point on the approach to 5-7 gave me no end of headaches during my stint at Clapham - the approach to 8-10 is no better either - no end of re-timbering and replacement of ironwork will sort that out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 True - but there is a S&C re-model in the system for the 1500/1501 1502/1503 scissors layout Yes the 3-way point on the approach to 5-7 gave me no end of headaches during my stint at Clapham - the approach to 8-10 is no better either - no end of re-timbering and replacement of ironwork will sort that out. There doesn't seem to be much space to do anything with the 1-4 throat without losing some of the flexibility. At present there is full parallel running for those four platforms. I have heard all manner of suggestions as to how the 1-4 problem might be tackled. The curve in and out is very tight too. One advantage for 5-7 is that there is access both in and out to both fast and slow lines, unlike 8 upwards (where if I recall correctly the only slow line access is via the West Crossings) or worse 1-4 where again if I recall correctly the nearest fast line access is the connection just on the Waterloo side of Vauxhall. 10-car trains cannot come soon enough on the SWT suburban services. Outside of the holiday season, trains are often rammed well before departure time - the 1754 to Dorking and 1757 Kingston Loop being especially bad, although as the latter leaves from Platform 5 I believe it is to be the first inner-suburban service to go 10-car. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 There doesn't seem to be much space to do anything with the 1-4 throat without losing some of the flexibility. At present there is full parallel running for those four platforms. I have heard all manner of suggestions as to how the 1-4 problem might be tackled. The curve in and out is very tight too. One advantage for 5-7 is that there is access both in and out to both fast and slow lines, unlike 8 upwards (where if I recall correctly the only slow line access is via the West Crossings) or worse 1-4 where again if I recall correctly the nearest fast line access is the connection just on the Waterloo side of Vauxhall. 10-car trains cannot come soon enough on the SWT suburban services. Outside of the holiday season, trains are often rammed well before departure time - the 1754 to Dorking and 1757 Kingston Loop being especially bad, although as the latter leaves from Platform 5 I believe it is to be the first inner-suburban service to go 10-car. Agreed - very glad it's not my problem to look after anymore - good sense would have said that you simply just wouldn't build Waterloo in that place on a reverse curve too.....................it needs the traction substation moving and the viaduct extending south to enable everything to be slewed across and "straightened out" abit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bayford Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 When the 455's were refurbished the door areas all got a guards panel, so the doors can be opened from anywhere on the train and at one point the SWT MD was very proactive at seeking out guards on trains when he was travelling if he thought they were 'hiding' in the cabs. If loosing the guards would speed up station stops I'm all for it, trains to waterloo seem to be slower than when the 455's were first introduced, these day there seems to be a process where the train has to stop, then the guard gets out, looks around, checks to confirm the platform hasn't dissapeared, then goes back to enable all the other doors, and then the reverse before giving two dings. it must add a couple of minutes to a journey on the SW suburban. Jon Not every Door position on a 455 has a GOP Panel only two of the four vesibule areas have them per coach but its an improvement on the one either end. And i read earlier in this thread that the 455's are getting the traction package mod due to unreliabiltiy of the current EX Sub 507 motors yet they are the oldest units operated by SWT and are the most reliable far more than the desiros and 458's its just to do with the current cost of having to overhaul 50 year old motors and control gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Not every Door position on a 455 has a GOP Panel only two of the four vesibule areas have them per coach but its an improvement on the one either end. And i read earlier in this thread that the 455's are getting the traction package mod due to unreliabiltiy of the current EX Sub 507 motors yet they are the oldest units operated by SWT and are the most reliable far more than the desiros and 458's its just to do with the current cost of having to overhaul 50 year old motors and control gear. The retractioning package is more to do with extending maintenance intervals so that more stock can be accommodated at Wimbledon depot than EE507 unreliability. It will also give energy savings. No indication yet as to what will happen to the 456 fleet when it moves to SWT. They have (I think) chopper control rather than resistance but have EE507 motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Wasn't there a plan at one stage to rebuild the concourse at Waterloo on a higher level and extend the platforms northwards? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 unreliabiltiy of the current EX Sub 507 motors Unreliable EE507 ?? - no such thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2013 The retractioning package is more to do with extending maintenance intervals so that more stock can be accommodated at Wimbledon depot than EE507 unreliability. It will also give energy savings. No indication yet as to what will happen to the 456 fleet when it moves to SWT. They have (I think) chopper control rather than resistance but have EE507 motors. Its not only the maintenance angle that is being looked at because one of the advantages of a more modern traction package is the ability to use regenerative braking something all modern units have and probably an asset in the morning & evening peaks on the SWML Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2013 Wasn't there a plan at one stage to rebuild the concourse at Waterloo on a higher level and extend the platforms northwards? I think that option is still on the cards, other options included lowering the concourse to the level of the erstwhile Eurostar entrance and using some of the vaults as a shopping area (a la St Pancrass / the rebuilt London Bridge). What nobody has proposed (and what seems the most logical thing to me is shortening the Eurostar train shed to suit domestic trains (thus providing more options as regards the layout of the station throat) and progressively rearranging the rest from North to South. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 According to Modern Railways a few months back, the elevated concourse at Waterloo would only allow 10-car trains on the shortest platforms, but by remodelling the throat and taking a couple of sidings and perhaps a bit of viaduct widening they can get 12 in all platforms. Presumably if they did both they'd get to 16. There is also the possibility of Crossrail 2 taking some of the Waterloo services underground, in which case there'd presumably be less to do to the station and approaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Has there been any thought of curving the easternmost platforms and making them into through lines to join end-on to some of the terminal lines at London Bridge to allow through working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 There's nothing new under the sun...................... First time I've actually seen a picture of it with the track in place though http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-waterloo-link/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted August 15, 2013 Author Share Posted August 15, 2013 There's nothing new under the sun...................... First time I've actually seen a picture of it with the track in place though http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-waterloo-link/ That photo and a couple of others appear in a book about Waterloo. Unfortunately I can't remember the title or author. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I don't see that is that case at all. 135-250 coaches just isn't enough 5 coach sets to be to give SWT a 5/10 coach suburban railway, so there must be a fairly high proportion at least one of the existing fleets to be extended. The desiro fleet as relatively newly built and with distributed power has to be favourite, but I know SWT have done trials with 5car 455's, and believe they were considered adequate. That's 50 5-car units on top of the 458/5 fleet and any 455+456 sets they run - look's pretty substantial to me, and is presumably what they can accommodate at Wimbledon following the upgrade to the 455 fleet. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 That's 50 5-car units on top of the 458/5 fleet and any 455+456 sets they run - look's pretty substantial to me, and is presumably what they can accommodate at Wimbledon following the upgrade to the 455 fleet. Chris Its only between 13.5 and 25 new 10 coach sets. Ignoring the 444's, SWT already have 91x455 +127x450 +30x458 = 248 4 car sets, they are adding 24x456 (i.e.12x4 car sets) and 60 458 vehicles (equivalent to 15 4 car sets) that's only about 10%, with another 5-10% from this new tender. Of course not all the 450's are in use on the suburban and some of the 450's previously used on the suburban will be leaving to back fill the 458's on the Reading line, and to boost the non-suburban network. I was forwarded the internal SWT HLOS newsletter 5 the other day and what I hadn't heard before is that the 450HC's are being re-fitted with 1st class, and whilst they won't return to the existing numbering, they will be returned to run interchangeably with the other 450's, leaving the 458/5's to run the Windsor suburban's that are currently 450HC. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Its only between 13.5 and 25 new 10 coach sets. Jon If they order the maximum number, which is pretty likely, it will be bigger than the enlarged 458 fleet so not insubstantial. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.