Clean locos and rolling stock

[buffalo]

...although all roofs were painted white in practise the colour in use was grey as they very quickly dirtied up...

 

Yes, but less dirt and more the chemical effect of sulphurous smoke on white lead paint, I believe.

 

Nick

[Adam]

Yep, the real world doesn't always follow the neat rules we modellers like to look for :-)

 

As an example of that (and getting back on topic), I like this pre-grouping photo on David Hey's site showing two Armstrong Goods. The same basic loco design in two very different conditions: One is very "old world" and quite clean with a dome you could eat off (if so inclined!), the other is much more modern (for the time) with a painted over dome and a good deal more dirty.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/dhc-699-507.jpg

 

(David has put up large size images of the two locos here and here ).

 

If you modelled that difference, people would tell you to make up your mind!

 

PS: But a closer study of the enlarged image of the clean loco shows that it too has subtle weathering.

 

Interesting. Looking at that picture closely I would say that 507 is probably the cleaner of the two; it was probably painted more recently and the highly polished brightwork gives a rather false impression - compare the relative sheen on the boilers and upper works highlighted by the streaks from the washout plugs on 507. The polish on the dome also shows up the dents nicely. Both machines, so far as you can tell, have quite a patina of oil around the rods (themselves anything but polished - would they be bare metal?) and the effects of attempts at cleaning on the chassis of 507 highlight the dirt nicely. These are cleaned engines which have been worked hard, not clean engines.

 

My impression of the rather nice 7mm GSWR loco' from earlier in the thread is that the underlying finish is far too 'flat' to be truly convincing though the degree of weathering is well judged. You see this even in photographs from later BR steam days; the paint is shiny (or at least, bulled up with parafin or whatever) and the muck contrasts by being relatively flat unless the loco was truly filthy and the contrast was lost.

 

Adam

[MikeOxon]

507 (built 1870) had a variety of boiler types during its life, ending up with the B4 shown in Nov 1911. 699 (built 1872) was in the form shown with S2 boiler from 1890 to June 1916 when it also was fitted with a B4.

for my info., where do you find that sort of information about boiler changes, especially when Belpaires were fitted to particular engines?

[t-b-g]

If you look at the photos of railway staff the S.W.A. Newton took around the turn of the 20th century some of the carriages in the background look decidedly grubby.

 

You are quite right. There is evidence that some carriages were photographed looking grubby. But there is much more evidence of them looking clean.

 

That is why I said "tended to be clean" rather than "were always clean".

 

What we don't know is the circumstances of the carriages in a particular photo. Had they just come off a long main line run and were about to be cleaned? Were they rarely used spares? Did they run day in day out in that condition? These things we will never know.

 

We also have the problem with the GCR that when they adopted teak as their carriage livery, it gets very tricky to see what is clean and what is dirty in a B & W photo. It only really shows against the grey or cream of the upper panels in the older livery.

 

Even when you watch videos from the 1960s when railways were possible at their dirtiest, if you watch a train of carriages at the correct angle you can usually see a reflection and a good sheen on the maroon paint.

 

So even at that time, a good number of trains ran with clean carriage sides, even though the roof/end/underframe may have been filthy.

[Mikkel]

That's an interesting photo, Mikkel. Unfortunately, the site went down after I loaded the first image, maybe I'll be able to see the enlargements later. I don't understand the caption, though, what's the mystery?

Nick, I think the caption just reflects that David didn't know what classes they were when he originally uploaded the photo.

 

Interesting. Looking at that picture closely I would say that 507 is probably the cleaner of the two; it was probably painted more recently and the highly polished brightwork gives a rather false impression - compare the relative sheen on the boilers and upper works highlighted by the streaks from the washout plugs on 507. The polish on the dome also shows up the dents nicely. Both machines, so far as you can tell, have quite a patina of oil around the rods (themselves anything but polished - would they be bare metal?) and the effects of attempts at cleaning on the chassis of 507 highlight the dirt nicely. These are cleaned engines which have been worked hard, not clean engines.

Those are very interesting observations Adam. When first looking at the photo the assumption is that one is cleaner than the other - partly because of the streaks, but probably also very much because of the dome. But as you say a closer study shows it may be the other way round. It just goes to show how pictures (and the eyes that see!) can fool us.

[Etched Pixels]

Even when you watch videos from the 1960s when railways were possible at their dirtiest, if you watch a train of carriages at the correct angle you can usually see a reflection and a good sheen on the maroon paint.

 

If you take a Mark 1 coach stick it next to a diesel with iffy piston rings and run it up and down a heritage railway for a couple of days it too has a reflection and a sheen. It sure ain't polish though.

[buffalo]

for my info., where do you find that sort of information about boiler changes, especially when Belpaires were fitted to particular engines?

Hi Mike,

 

The main source is The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway published in thirteen fourteen parts by the RCTS (Railway Correspondence and Travel Soc) between 1951 and 1983 1993. Long out of print but copies often appear at anything from a few quid to silly numbers. There's a few available on Amazon most of the time.

 

Nick

 

ps. the info on boilers lists the dates of type changes rather than every boiler change so, for example, it's not possible to tell how many times 699 was fitted with a new S2 between Feb 1890 and June 1916. That can be a little irritating when you have a photo that shows a loco in ex-works condition.

[Bruciethefish]

An interesting thread, this... I too feel that some degree of subtle weathering is necessary to achieve a realistic look to even pre-group models. One way to represent the sheen seen on cleaned, but 'in service' locos is to use a little WD40 on top of a very lightly misted weathering coat. Once the more volatile components evaporate, this leaves a very slightly oily wax behind, which can be rubbed up to a shine, whilst leaving a convincing, slightly darker effect in corners & crevices... A scale equivalent to the oily rag, perhaps...

[BOARD OF TRADE]

I like my trains the way I like my women,clean,fresh,and beautiful looking !

[Colin_McLeod]

So what do you do when they get a bit weathered?

[James]

I like my trains the way I like my women,clean,fresh,and beautiful looking !

I like my trains dirty; some things are much better when they're dirty...

[MikeOxon]

I thought these pics in another thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37636-cornwall-today-or-whenever/?p=1138024

show how a well-polished loco still has some 'well-used' looking bits.

[ian@stenochs]

 

My impression of the rather nice 7mm GSWR loco' from earlier in the thread is that the underlying finish is far too 'flat' to be truly convincing though the degree of weathing is well judged. You see this even in photographs from later BR steam days; the paint is shiny (or at least, bulled up with parafin or whatever) and the muck contrasts by being relatively flat unless the loco was truly filthy and the contrast was lost.

 

Adam

 

 

Hi Adam,

 

Please get things correct, The loco is from the G&SWR not the GSWR which is an Irish Railway!  The Glasgow and South western railway NEVEr missed out the Ampersand in its publications or on how it identified its rolling stock so why should we?

 

Sorry to sound like a pedant but modelling should reflect how things were!

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

 

Ian

[Adam]

So the Great Southern & Western (note ampersand, part of its formal title too) is still going?

Let's not go further down that slightly petty road; I didn't mean to offend. Forgive me this once and I'll happily take your point. My impression of your lovely model (I think I saw your layout at Wells a few years back? Scaleseven I think?) was that it looks like it has been subject to a dose of semi-matt varnish which - to my eye (an mine alone) - slightly kills the finish. I would have aimed for a bit more of a sheen though it may just be the camera angle. A bit like this possibly - no, not a pre-grouping machine, nor an especially clean one, and some way behind a finescale 4-4-0 in terms of degree of difficulty:

 

 

I made quite an effort to polish up the rather flat Hornby finish in an attempt to emulate pictures of my particular prototype and I think it was worth it. Perhaps my 'minds eye' had something like this in mind - http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/6210351153/in/set-72157624322947536/lightbox/ - The Great Marquess in early preservation days. It seems that this loco' was worked reasonably hard and was well cleaned but not obsessively so and that seems to have been typical of several of these 'working' preserved locos in the '60s; Caley 123, in contrast, was obviously especially well kept and from the pictures I've seen of it when it was working it was always immaculate - noticably better than the other Scottish celebrities in my view though they were all very tidy indeed.

 

Thanks for sharing the picture of your excellent machine.

 

Adam

[Londontram]

Boy I've loved this thread, I must admit after years of building grubby 1960's era model layouts I'm just starting on a Scottish branch line (Caledonian with their lovely blue engines and plum and white coaches to die for) set about 1910 and one of the idea being to have clean locos and coaches for a change. But I think the clean but used look is the way I'll go. Steve

[MikeOxon]

If you think I am going to try coating my little efforts with tallow, Forget it!

Sometimes, one must suffer for one's art

 

When I first mentioned the use of tallow (#8 in this thread), I knew I had a photo somewhere. 

 

Now, I have found one of 'Great Western' showing tallow patterns on the frames, cab-sides, and tender.  I'm sure I have seen more artistic examples but this one illustrates the general appearance.

 

 

Mike

[alfsboy]

You can polish semi matt paint by using some of the very fine micro mesh .I use it in various grades  to remove numbering and if I use the finest afterwards I get a shiny surface to put a water slide on  decal on .The method could be used to shine up in all the right places a pregroup loco.I havnt actually done but I know it would work well .OK who's first to try their SECR C class

[Londontram]

I’ve “borrowed” this of the Caledonian railway association forum (sorry guys) as it’s a good view of the state of an engine close up showing details of its condition that might be missed in the normal photo. Taken in about 1895 to 1900 it shows a Caledonian 2-4-0 built I believe in the early 1870s with is crew.

Now look a the close up in the second photo, the engine is actually in quiet a state with dirty streaks running down the cab side with what looks like some rust around the number plate and quiet bad rust pitting on the boiler/firebox side by the Westinghouse pump. Quite a state really especially coming from a company who prided them selves on having some of the countries best kept locos. Steve

[Nick Holliday]

In all fairness to the Caledonian and its high standards, this loco is on the duplicate list, as indicated by the A on its numberplate.  Duplication was often the last step before scrapping; think of it as a 30 year old car that has failed its MOT, and you would say it is in pretty good condition, really.

[Londontram]

Oh no Nick don’t get me wrong, I’m not being overly critical of the Caledonian but it was a boast of theres and your right, I think most if not all this class had gone by 1910 so by this time it was most likely already on secondary duties It was more to point out that not every engine was in spotless condition and might have been of interest to modellers. Steve

[Octavian30]

The markings on the firebopx side are from the paint flaking off fromt he heat - so makes it a bit hard for the men to polish the non-existant paint.....

[DLT]

Just found this very interesting topic.

Dave.

[uax6]

Looking this morning at some Highland Railway loco pictures it appears that even on non-duplicated locos that getting paint to stick to the firebox sides seems to have been a real issue in them days. Lots of locos seem to have run around with paint missing...

 

Oh and be careful squirting WD40 about near plastics, it does nasty things to it. But certainly keep it well away from electrical bits, as it will destroy insulation.

 

Andy G