Clean locos and rolling stock

[James]

First of all, while we are on Unions, can I recommend this site, which is an absolutely brilliant resource - irrespective of politics.

Thanks for posting the link - very interesting!

[chaz]

It will be a great shame if a topic about weathering pre-grouping stock becomes sidetracked by unnecessary wrangles. Please, lads, no more!

 

Now, how to weather well-cleaned stock? Well, I seem to recall Martyn Welch, in his excellent book, suggesting that one way might be to make the model dirty and then clean it, mirroring what happens in reality. When the paint which represents grime, soot etc is cleaned off it will cling on in corners, up against raised details etc. Of course it is quite difficult to get cotton buds dampened with white-spirit into corners on a model quite as well as a cleaner with an oily rag on the real thing but it can be approached. It's certainly easier in 7mm than it is in 4.

 

Chaz

[mikeandnel]

Chaz,

 

I certainly agree with you about unnecessary wrangles in a modelling forum.

So count me out of this subject.

Sorry I raised it!

Regards

Michael

[Colin_McLeod]

"Me Too"  I keep all my locomotives and carraiges in ex works condition. Though now that I've put that in print I have no doubt Murphy's Law will apply and I will weather something.

 

Having worked for NIR and being tasked (among other things) to keep trains clean, I now look on a dirty train as something that needs rectified. I feel the same about a model of a dirty train. I'm afraid that if I was given the gift of a professionally weatherd locomotive, I would be very tempted to repaint it into ex works condition. A bit like James May throwing away that empty box.

[James]

 

I certainly agree with you about unnecessary wrangles in a modelling forum.

Or to look at it another way, the whole myth of spotless pre-group locos and placing it very nicely in a real historical context.

 

Sadly many enhtusiasts have a hideously rosy view of the railways of the past (and the same trait is displayed by the general population on many issues). Whilst there's nothing wrong with nostalgia - what is a shame is it seems to gloss over the hard work which many railwaymen had to endure. And my personal view is that many of the best layouts are those which show the railway just how it was or is. I think it's similar to when you see how an artist has had a real empathy with the subject of their work.

 

Not everyone will agree of course...

 

So count me out of this subject.

Even though your comment started it!

[Colin_McLeod]

The driver also appears to have been selected from a packet of HO scale figures.

Best wishes

Eric   

 

   It just goes to show how realistic those HO scale figures are.

 

 

[Poggy1165]

Labour was very cheap and plentiful before World War One. Young cleaners worked for a pittance, and they worked in teams. In the days of one driver one engine it was not unknown for the driver, and indeed the regular fireman, to come into the shed on a day off and do a spot of extra polishing. (I know of one such case where the driver in question had a poor relationship with his missus and wanted to be out of the house as much as possible.) Of course engines got dirty in traffic. That is so obvious it isn't worth saying. But there is a huge difference between how a pre-1914 engine would look at the end of the day, and the state of (most) steam engines in the 1960s.

 

So while I agree that some weathering is appropriate, I think it's important not to go to the other extreme, and replicate something like BR (LMR) circa 1964. Careful study of photographs helps (since some will never believe oral tradition) but it's worth remembering that we have only a small sample, with a disproportionate number taken on Bank Holidays and other special occasions. While there are undoubtedly some quite dirty pre-group engines (particularly after 1914) you will also find photos that show them very clean indeed.

 

Another in my collection shows a Robinson 0-8-0 at Guide Bridge. The date is some time after 1915, as it's unlined, and the works was so pressed for time they didn't even paint 'Great Central' on the tender. Yet it's still pretty clean. Not so clean you'd eat your dinner off it, but far above average BR standards. However what really struck me is that someone has bothered to polish the brass surround on the splashers. A goods engine, in wartime, not even finished off properly by the paint shop, and yet someone troubled to do that.

[Etched Pixels]

My own preference is to use very thin washes of mostly grey water colours (eg the woodland scenics scenery paints)  and then wipe the coach or wagon. It sits in the corners as I want but doesn't have the harsh look of some weathering powders.

 

It also means that if it goes horribly wrong you can dunk it in the sink and try again.

 

Alan

[chaz]

.....there is a huge difference between how a pre-1914 engine would look at the end of the day, and the state of (most) steam engines in the 1960s.

 

So while I agree that some weathering is appropriate, I think it's important not to go to the other extreme, and replicate something like BR (LMR) circa 1964. Careful study of photographs helps (since some will never believe oral tradition) but it's worth remembering that we have only a small sample, with a disproportionate number taken on Bank Holidays and other special occasions. While there are undoubtedly some quite dirty pre-group engines (particularly after 1914) you will also find photos that show them very clean indeed.

 

Couldn't agree more. But it still remains the case that if all your stock looks like it has just left the paintshop your railway is not going to look very realistic. One of the problems (which I don't have modelling as I do the steam/diesel transition) is that there are no colour photographs from the pre-group era. Working from monochrome images is better than nothing but it does leave quite an element of guesswork.

[alfsboy]

First of all, while we are on Unions, can I recommend this site, which is an absolutely brilliant resource - irrespective of politics.

The two photos below have been posted previously in this thread - but they are worth another look. Both feature the Stroudley livery and therefore must date from before WW1 when the Brighton had a reputation for smartly turned out locomotives. Those on mainline expresses probably were, but evidently you did not need to go very far to see locos showing obvious signs of use. 

weathering.jpg

Wapping is captured in the 1870s (see the balancing pipe across the top of the tanks, which was removed early on). Note the scorched paintwork around the smokebox, boot damage (?) along the bottom of the sidetanks, water stains below the tank fillers and oil stains around the wheels and motion.

weathering_1.jpg

Bonchurch is long overdue for a wipedown with an oily rag, with scorching on the chimney, water stains below the condensing pipes, bare metal around the boiler feed and the lining almost invisible. The driver also appears to have been selected from a packet of HO scale figures.

Best wishes

Eric   

that drivers priceless.Ive done similar but will have to do that guy in 00 and possibly 0.

[Etched Pixels]

I'm trying to work out how he sees where he is going. He doesn't seem tall enough to look out of the front windows ?

[chaz]

I'm trying to work out how he sees where he is going. He doesn't seem tall enough to look out of the front windows ?

 

He would lean out of the side like most drivers did. They even did it when the first diesels came into service, as old habits die hard. I think the cab spectacles were thought of as ventilators and as a way of getting more light into the cab, not as something to look through. Dirt on the glass and drifting smoke and steam might well render the view ahead through them somewhat compromised.

[ian@stenochs]

Labour was very cheap and plentiful before World War One. Young cleaners worked for a pittance, and they worked in teams. In the days of one driver one engine it was not unknown for the driver, and indeed the regular fireman, to come into the shed on a day off and do a spot of extra polishing. (I know of one such case where the driver in question had a poor relationship with his missus and wanted to be out of the house as much as possible.) Of course engines got dirty in traffic. That is so obvious it isn't worth saying. But there is a huge difference between how a pre-1914 engine would look at the end of the day, and the state of (most) steam engines in the 1960s.

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

I agree that standards varied depending on the circumstances.  Top link would get most resources spent on them while humble mineral locos were given less TLC by the cleaners. Of course the loco men would do what they could especially if the locos were single manned.  Things changed with the onset of war in 1914 when intensive rostering started and many young men went off to war. Many of the railways started to employ women as cleaners, the Sou' west certainly did.  I have a poor photo of an engine at Muirkirk with three lady cleaners proudly beside it.  I suppose the long skirts would scour some of the dirt off as the clambered over the locos!

 

This is my interpretation of an engine in 1915,  Mostly clean but with a bit of grime here and there.

 

Happy Modelling,

 

Ian.

[davknigh]

Ian,

 

You've hit the right balance with that one Just the right amount of grot for a hard working but well loved engine.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Poggy1165]

Yes, I would be very happy with that interpretation. It's a fantastic model, anyway.

[Siberian Snooper]

I saw and rode behind Earl of Bathurst in the '70s, she looked imaculate from the platform, but I went up on to the footbridge at Banbury to get a photo only to discover that the centre 2 foot (600mm) or so on top of the boiler barrel was absolutely filthy as was the top of the firebox.

 

I have also assisted in cleaning an ex works small tank engine after lighting up in a shed. The paint work was covered in a rash of black spots after the blower was put on. The oily rag also leaves it's own mark on the paint work, which over time builds up to leave a browny coloured patina on the paint work or varnish.

 

SS

[ChrisN]

What a fascinating topic!

 

Having read/ been involved with threads that model late BR where heavy weathering is considered the norm and WD 8Fs were held together by rust it is nice to read about locos being cleaned so I will add my two penny worth.

 

I read somewhere that after nationalisation it appeared that the railways forgot where the mop and bucket was so things got a lot dirtier.

 

I know as a fact (this statement means I have no idea if it is true, or where I got it from, or to when or where it applies to) that express engines were cleaned every day, that secondary engines were cleaned every other day, and goods engines cleaned once a week.

 

I have also read that drivers of express trains in Edwardian times would place a cloth behind the funnel on leaving the shed which they would remove once attached to the train so as to catch the dirty water that came from the chimney as they first started out so that they could be seen at the station in immaculate condition.

 

I have not yet built a layout but have various bits of stock which I have made from kits and the thought of weathering it, even lightly terrifies me.  I am also scratch building a cottage which needs weathering before I put it together so I will start there. 

 

I am sure light weathering is the way to do at least pre WW1 with maybe a bit more on goods only locos.

 

Finally they found that engine driver in Monty's Models  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MSV50.php

 

He just needs a bit adding to his beard and the hat filling down a bit

[Mikkel]

Finally they found that engine driver in Monty's Models http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/montys/MSV50.php

 

He just needs a bit adding to his beard and the hat filling down a bit

 

 

You'll have to steal him from the GWR first!

 

 

 

...and that goes for the fireman too!     

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, apologies for the interruption - I'm eagerly taking notes from this very interesting discussion.

[Mikkel]

Yep, the real world doesn't always follow the neat rules we modellers like to look for :-)

 

As an example of that (and getting back on topic), I like this pre-grouping photo on David Hey's site showing two Armstrong Goods. The same basic loco design in two very different conditions: One is very "old world" and quite clean with a dome you could eat off (if so inclined!), the other is much more modern (for the time) with a painted over dome and a good deal more dirty.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/dhc-699-507.jpg

 

(David has put up large size images of the two locos here and here ).

 

If you modelled that difference, people would tell you to make up your mind!

 

PS: But a closer study of the enlarged image of the clean loco shows that it too has subtle weathering.

[buffalo]

That's an interesting photo, Mikkel. Unfortunately, the site went down after I loaded the first image, maybe I'll be able to see the enlargements later. I don't understand the caption, though, what's the mystery? 507 (built 1870) had a variety of boiler types during its life, ending up with the B4 shown in Nov 1911. 699 (built 1872) was in the form shown with S2 boiler from 1890 to June 1916 when it also was fitted with a B4. Both were withdrawn in 1919. So, the photo was taken between Nov 1911 and June 1916. I'll leave the location to others...

 

Nick

 

edit: the site is back up again now

[t-b-g]

Even the period "pre-grouping" covers a wide period and several major changes in the fortunes and circumstances of the railway network (and the country).

 

The railways of 1917 were in a very different condition to the railways of 1911.

 

There is a book, called William Bradshaw, Leicestershire Railway Cameraman, that is my "bible" when it comes to such things. He took a good selection of photos around Leicester (GCR and Midland) mostly before WW!.

 

There are some photos where GC locos at Leicester, waiting to go on traiins, are just immaculate. A loco going into an exhibition could hardly be cleaner. There are others where a degree of dirt is evident, especially on freight locos and "second division" locos like tanks. All the locos are relatively clean until the war and then some are decidedly unkempt.

 

Carriages tend to be very clean as far as the bodywork is concerned but there isn't a white roof in sight and underframes show varying degrees of dirt. Wagons are a mixture from quite clean to filthy.

 

Even then, a model of something like a miners train on a colliery line would still arrant some weathering on the bodywork!

 

As with all modelling, observation is the key, rather than sweeping generalisations about standards of cleanliness. To me, the best modelling is where various finishes have been applied, showing how locos and rolling stock in service varied in service.

 

My own modelling is now pre-grouping because I can go from light weathering to immaculate rather than the dirty to very dirty that seems to be in vogue with the very popular 1950s/1960s period. I firmly believe that our railways were at their best looking from around 1890 up to 1914, in terms of elegence of design and livery and that apart from a few exceptions, it has been downhill since then.

 

Here are the GCR Atlantic and 4-4-0 built by my good friend Malcolm Crawley for a layout we were working on together when he died and which have come to me now. The appearance is based closely of photos in the book. They really did run looking like this......

[James]

The appearance is based closely of photos in the book.

And this is the key to all modelling I think!

[Etched Pixels]

 

 

 

Anyway, apologies for the interruption - I'm eagerly taking notes from this very interesting discussion.

 

Oh dear now you've got me looking for drawings of Amstrong 927 and 388 classes !

[billbedford]

Carriages tend to be very clean as far as the bodywork is concerned but there isn't a white roof in sight and underframes show varying degrees of dirt. Wagons are a mixture from quite clean to filthy.

 

If you look at the photos of railway staff the S.W.A. Newton took around the turn of the 20th century some of the carriages in the background look decidedly grubby.

[ChrisN]

t-b-g, on 20 Aug 2013 - 10:43, said:

 

Even the period "pre-grouping" covers a wide period and several major changes in the fortunes and circumstances of the railway network (and the country).

 

The railways of 1917 were in a very different condition to the railways of 1911.

 

There is a book, called William Bradshaw, Leicestershire Railway Cameraman, that is my "bible" when it comes to such things. He took a good selection of photos around Leicester (GCR and Midland) mostly before WW!.

 

Carriages tend to be very clean as far as the bodywork is concerned but there isn't a white roof in sight and underframes show varying degrees of dirt. Wagons are a mixture from quite clean to filthy.

I am glad that you brought up the carriage roofs as I ment to mention it earlier. I am fairly certain I read it in Russells Carriage book Vol 1 but I cannot find it now, that although all roofs were painted white in practise the colour in use was grey as they very quickly dirtied up.

 

I would like to point out that I have bought a Monty's Model porter with a rag and bucket who is a scale 7ft tall but will be busy cleaning my station windows as my glazing techneque is not perfect so even he will to busy to tackle the dirt on my carriages. I had better learn how to apply weathering.