Simple Ways To Get Started With Pre Grouping Layouts

[BG John]

I think this layout from the Small Layout Scrapbook shows that it's possible to start modelling early railways without too much difficulty.

http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page115/index.html - at the top of the page

 

It only needs one loco and a small amount of rolling stock to get started if you build something very small, and there are small numbers of RTR locos and stock available for various periods before 1923.

 

Has anyone else got any examples that might inspire people to have a go?

 

[mikeandnel]

BG John

Avery useful link. Thanks

Michael

[MikeOxon]

The very early railways and tramways certainly offer scope for very simple, small layouts that a 'a bit different'.  I have always thought that Blenkinsop's early locomotive would be an interesting subject.

 

Public Domain

 

The wooden box over the steam exhaust is a silencer!  These engines worked in the Leeds area from around 1812.  A similar engine worked in the Wigan coalfield at Orrell, where it was known as "The Yorkshire Horse"

 

There is an interesting description in a book by Sir George Head - free download from  http://archive.org/details/hometourthroughm00head

"The railroad and locomotive steam engines are curious and worthy of observation, being of the earliest manu­facture in the country ; the latter especially as different in appearance from the engines in present use, as a stage coach in the days of Queen Anne from Mr. Leader's modern vehicles. " 

 

I find it fascinating to think of vehicles of 1835 as advanced technology!

 

(I've another reference to this book at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62580-small-household-coal-yard-facilities/?p=1131250

 

 

[mikeandnel]

For Mike Oxon

What a beautiful thing that locomotive is, and fairly straightforward to reproduce if the

dimensions were available, but a 'pig' to motorise without it being obvious!

The closest I have come to that loco is 'Lion' and I still trying to figure out a way to

motorise that.

Apart from that, my two earliest at the moment are an LCDR 'Brigand' and an original

Beattie well tank

Michael

[MikeOxon]

 

What a beautiful thing that locomotive is, and fairly straightforward to reproduce if the

dimensions were available, but a 'pig' to motorise without it being obvious!

I find that tender (or attached wagon) drive comes into its own for early engines, especially since single-wheelers always have adhesion problems. I know that many modellers do not approve but, since an electric motor has no real place in a locomotive anyway, I think it is a reasonable solution.

 

Mike

[mikeandnel]

You are quite correct about the weight and adhesion problems with models of early locos

But can you also suggest an suitable early wagon or coach model which could be unobtrusively motorised

for such a loco?

I must admit that my 2-2-2 'Sharpie has traction but the loco in your picture would have been even smaller in reality.

Any suggestions on a postcard please!

Best regards

Michael

[jcm@gwr]

I find that tender (or attached wagon) drive comes into its own for early engines, especially since single-wheelers always have adhesion problems. I know that many modellers do not approve but, since an electric motor has no real place in a locomotive anyway, I think it is a reasonable solution.

 

Mike

 

It maybe an option to consider using a Black Beetle/Spud

type of unit, with just a wheel change?

If it has the right wheelbase, then adding spoked wheels

should look okay under a tender or wagon.

 

Jeff

[MikeOxon]

It maybe an option to consider using a Black Beetle/Spud

type of unit

Certainly possible.I have used a SPUD in the front bogie of a GWR Dean Single!

[jcm@gwr]

Certainly possible.I have used a SPUD in the front bogie of a GWR Dean Single!

 

Thats what prompted that thought!

 

I am considering doing the same for mine.

 

Jeff (thanks)

[burgundy]

An alternative approach is the series of motors sold by Nigel Lawton and used in this project. On the Sharpie, the whole drive train is effectively hidden behind the driving wheel.

Best wishes

Eric

[MikeOxon]

fairly straightforward to reproduce if the dimensions were available

Wikimedia commons has this scaled drawing (I've made the scale a bit easier to read)

 

 

Feel free to have a go   Having looked at the details of the toothed drive, I'm not sure it will be that "straightforward" but still an interesting challenge.  Apparently, these were the first commercially successful locomotives but their light weight made the toothed drive necessary.  I think it is clever, the way he fitted the teeth (he called them 'protuberances' on the outside of a smooth rail and used the chairs to lock them in place.

 

Blenkinsop Rail and Chair (1811)

 

Mike

[jcm@gwr]

 I think it is clever, the way he fitted the teeth (he called them 'protuberances' on the outside of a smooth rail and used the chairs to lock them in place.

 

Blenkinsop_rail.jpg

Blenkinsop Rail and Chair (1811)

 

Mike

 

Try doing that with CWR!

Jeff

[mikeandnel]

Mike

 

Thanks for the scale. It does make a build possible to create within reason

 

Michael

[BG John]

Doesn't look like a very simple way to get started to me! I was hoping for some suggestions for doing it with RTR stuff and straightforward kits and modifications

[MikeOxon]

Mike

 

Thanks for the scale. It does make a build possible to create within reason

 

Michael

and a good subject for your wooden materials, as described in the thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74488-scratch-building-wagons/

 

Mike

[MikeOxon]

Doesn't look like a very simple way to get started to me! I was hoping for some suggestions for doing it with RTR stuff and straightforward kits and modifications

You're right - I apologise for diverting your thread somewhat.  I was really thinking of the simple overall plan of these very early railways and the potential for a simple coal drop scene.  A little 0-4-0 and a couple of tip wagons would do the job.  The emphasis would then have to be on the scenery.

[MikeOxon]

I'll try a different tack!  There's surprisingly little in the way of early RTR industrial locos.  A bit of bashing on the cheap Hornby R2941 0-4-0T (£21 from Hattons) could produce something suitable for a small colliery or quarry scene.  A lot of this sort of thing is done in narrow gauge and ideas could be taken from there.  I have this small mine on my 009 railway and something similar could be done  in 00. Of course it needs plenty of people 'doing things'!

 

 

 

 

I also found a photo of the Leeds Old Staithe, where the Blenkinsop engine originally worked.  With slightly more modern motive power, it could be turned into an interesting diorama from the early period.  The arches would need opening out again, to re-create the original coal drops.

 

Coal staithe at Kidacre Street, Hunslet, Leeds. This was the terminus of the Middleton colliery railway

© Leeds Library and Information Service, licensed under Creative Commons

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mikeandnel]

Mike

Funny you should say that about wooden materials.

I am just in the process of fitting real mahogany foot boards to a couple of

1850's LBSCR passenger coaches made up from 5 & 9 4mm kits.

Should be able to post them soon

Regards

Michael

[CKPR]

If you're still looking for 19th century rolling stock, the  NER P1 chaldron wagon produced by Smallbrook Studio  is excellent:

 

http://www.smallbrookstudio.co.uk/#/products-new/4569521214/North-Eastern-Railway-P1-Chaldron-Waggon-Kit/3739862

[Ian Simpson]

I agree the Smallbrook chaldron wagon is great for early industrial layouts like quarries or canal quays. I've cut off the top plank and fitted 10.5 mm wheels to bring it down to 3.5 mm. There's a couple of photos in my post at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2048/entry-18067-building-the-traverser

 

I usually run the wagons behind the Bachmann US deWitt Clinton loco; with the plastic canopy over the tender removed it makes a very nice freelance late 'twenties / early 1830s private loco.  I've also posted some notes of the Bachmann Norris loco used by Peter Seviour on his wonderful Pockerley Wagon Way at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2048/entry-18014-notes-on-the-Bachmann-norris-loco - they tended to find their way to collieries, contractors and other industrial users as they were sold off by the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in the late 1840s and early 1850s.

[wagonman]

You are quite correct about the weight and adhesion problems with models of early locos

But can you also suggest an suitable early wagon or coach model which could be unobtrusively motorised

for such a loco?

I must admit that my 2-2-2 'Sharpie has traction but the loco in your picture would have been even smaller in reality.

Any suggestions on a postcard please!

Best regards

Michael

 

 

One possible solution might be to put a motor in the tender and run a cardan shaft drive to a gearbox on the driving axle. Then pack all the space above the axle with lead. This would probably be better if all the axles were sprung, of course...

 

All this 3 years too late!

[Poggy1165]

In 7mm scale SERKits do a rather wonderful range of kits for the early SER. So small are the trains that I think it would be easy to have a 7mm scale layout in a space normally thought suitable for 4mm.

 

Another 7mm source is Parliamentary Trains. Most of their stuff is LNWR, but they also produce some early road vehicles.

 

OK, all these products are kits, but compared to scratch building these items, they're an 'easy start'. Ideal for someone who wants 7mm scale but only has a small area.