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Northgate Road. BR (SR) 1960s third rail branch.


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I've done a lot of reading and absorbed as much as possible from this forum over the past weeks before putting this plan together. I'd appreciate a review of the signalling and also the track plan if there's anything obvious amiss. It's going to be my first layout as a bit of a test bed of my modelling skills. 

 

Northgate Road sits one station down a branch from a busy mainline junction on the London-Portsmouth line. Northgate is a reasonable sized town and the third rail was extended down as far as Northgate Road to capture the commuter market to London, beyond this point the line singles. EMUs arrive at the down platform before shunting across into the bay and setting off up towards the main. At rush hour, they arrive and depart from the down platform. Mixed in with the EMUs are branch trains pulled by M7 tanks, mixed goods (Q1s,Wainwrights, Ivatt 2MTs) and two semi-fast passenger trains daily from the branch terminus to London (Schools). A daily milk train starting here and collecting from other dairies on route may be my excuse for a streamlined WC....

 

post-18343-0-14563700-1376995041_thumb.jpg

 

Firstly, are there any obvious issues? The faint red line alongside the track representing the third rail hasn't shown up clearly but it is only the down platform, crossover and bay that are electrified.

Some specific questions I am not sure about:

 

1. Signal 7 is only there to control movements through point 12 into the small siding. Would it actually be a ground disc as this is not a passenger train movement?

2. Disc 8 controls movements from the yard. There may be a time when a train moves from the yard into the small siding off point 12 - does this need another disc? I believe it might be possible with hand signals or to do both movements with one signal.

3. Would point 9 more realistically be manually operated and lever 9 actually control a catch point between the current points 9 and 10?

4. Discs 5 and 17 allow shunts wrong-direction through the up platform. Are they required or could this be a hand signalled move too?

5. I've put in signals 15 and 16 to control shunt ahead moves from platforms to bay and reverse in conjunction with ground disc 13. Is this correct?

6. If the bay gets used over night for parcels, I will need a catch point before 14?

7. Signals 20 and 21 control access to the down platform and yard respectively. I am unsure if 21 would be better at the toe of point 12 along with another disc controlling movements out of the short siding off 12 and reversing movements into the down platform for a loco that has just exited the yard? Or can all these options be hand signalled too from the box?

 

I think that's all my questions for now. It will be interesting to see how right or wrong this is!

Thanks for everyone's time,

John

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Hi John,

 

I'll let the experts respond to the signalling questions (and carefully read their responses myself), but I really like the scenario of a 1960s Southern Region "transition" layout with a third-rail component.   Please keep us posted on progress.

 

Best regards,

Bill

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Hi,

 

Not too bad.  Just a few questions.

 

What are 19 and11?  Facing Point locks?

 

Geographically where is the junction?

 

Is it LBSC or LSWR in origin?

 

After the line singles, is it routed to a junction or a terminus?

 

I will send my suggestions after a review,

 

Thanks,

 

Ernie Puddick

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Not too bad.  Just a few questions.......

Ernie Puddick

 

Ernie,

Thanks for taking a look.

 

Yes, 19 and 11 are my representation of FPLs, based on how I've seen other people drawing them on here.

Geographically, I'm imagining the junction being Redhill, therefore LBSC origin.

"Northgate Road" in my head is in about the same location as Reigate, as it was Reigate that gave me the protoype for terminating third rail at the through station. I just wanted a bit more operating potential and therefore devised my own track plan for the location.

I was originally thinking the branch would ultimately be routed to a terminus, but now you've asked the question I'm curious to know what difference it makes to the track plan or signalling. It could just as easily be a single line brach going to Guildford as per the real Reigate station. Would that change things?

I put the signalbox at the single track end of the station, assuming this would make things easier for exchanging tokens for the single track.

 

Cheers

John

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Hi,

 

A few quick points:

 

1. Signal 7 is only there to control movements through point 12 into the small siding. Would it actually be a ground disc as this is not a passenger train movement?

A shunt signal would be used.  I would suggest that the small headshunt is made into a sand drag, any shunts being made via the single line.

2. Disc 8 controls movements from the yard. There may be a time when a train moves from the yard into the small siding off point 12 - does this need another disc? I believe it might be possible with hand signals or to do both movements with one signal.

A Yellow shunt signal - Can be passed when on to access the headshunt, when off allows movement towards the main.  Access to this small yard is under the control of the shunter through a release plunger

3. Would point 9 more realistically be manually operated and lever 9 actually control a catch point between the current points 9 and 10?

Points 9 and 10 would form a crossover. ie under one lever in the box.

4. Discs 5 and 17 allow shunts wrong-direction through the up platform. Are they required or could this be a hand signalled move too?

The southern liked signals and one signal could apply to more than one route.

5. I've put in signals 15 and 16 to control shunt ahead moves from platforms to bay and reverse in conjunction with ground disc 13. Is this correct?

Signals 15 and 16 would be shunt signals (small discs)

6. If the bay gets used over night for parcels, I will need a catch point before 14?

Yes, part off a crossover

7. Signals 20 and 21 control access to the down platform and yard respectively. I am unsure if 21 would be better at the toe of point 12 along with another disc controlling movements out of the short siding off 12 and reversing movements into the down platform for a loco that has just exited the yard? Or can all these options be hand signalled too from the box?

 

 

Yes, 19 and 11 are my representation of FPLs, based on how I've seen other people drawing them on here.

Any point that requires facing movements by passenger trains must ne locked; facing point locks (mechanical on a lever or mechanical within a point motor) or clipped and padlocked in unforeseen circumstances. 

Geographically, I'm imagining the junction being Redhill, therefore LBSC origin.

"Northgate Road" in my head is in about the same location as Reigate, as it was Reigate that gave me the prototype for terminating third rail at the through station. I just wanted a bit more operating potential and therefore devised my own track plan for the location.

I was originally thinking the branch would ultimately be routed to a terminus, but now you've asked the question I'm curious to know what difference it makes to the track plan or signalling. It could just as easily be a single line branch going to Guildford as per the real Reigate station. Would that change things?  It would relate to the amount of traffic passing on the single track.

I put the signalbox at the single track end of the station, assuming this would make things easier for exchanging tokens for the single track.

 

There are some good web pages that you can visit and see how it was done on the Southern.  For example http://www.signalbox.org/gallery/sr.htm

 

Not sure how advanced your track laying is, but the only thing awkward is the crossover between the platform lines.  Can this be moved?

 

See my 'fag packet' plan.  Ignore the numbers

 

Regards,

 

Ernie Puddick

Northgate suggestion

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Cromptonnut, always good to know a local, thanks for the offer. I had seen the Reigate diagram but my track plan has ended up so different I still had many questions.

 

Ernie, I built in most of your suggestions and have updated the track plan. I left out the disc under the starter for wrong direction running through the up platform as I don't understand it's purpose as both it and the starter read to the advanced starter only as far as I can tell? I'm only looking into baseboard materials at present and trying to price everything and can potentially therefore move the crossover out of the station, I am thinking about this as it was a feature I quite liked (although realise is uncommon). Appreciate the help.

 

post-18343-0-44760600-1377525997_thumb.jpg

 

Now to think about how I'm going to build and mechanise all those signals. At least they're all reasonably simple!

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This layout does remind me somewhat of Oxted

 

Although the bay at Oxted is for trains in the down direction toward Uckfield/East Grinstead so it's the wrong way round and of course the line doesn't single at the station.

 

On top of this the area does still have a transition to unelectrified for the Uckfield branch

 

For as bit of inspiration and maybe if someone has got a historic signalling plan showing the arrangements as they were in the 1960's , this could provide some signalling hints

 

Have a google map view of Oxted station and you'l see what I'm talking about

 

If I have a track plan I'll post it

 

Mike

 

Cromptonnut, always good to know a local, thanks for the offer. I had seen the Reigate diagram but my track plan has ended up so different I still had many questions.

 

Ernie, I built in most of your suggestions and have updated the track plan. I left out the disc under the starter for wrong direction running through the up platform as I don't understand it's purpose as both it and the starter read to the advanced starter only as far as I can tell? I'm only looking into baseboard materials at present and trying to price everything and can potentially therefore move the crossover out of the station, I am thinking about this as it was a feature I quite liked (although realise is uncommon). Appreciate the help.

 

attachicon.gifNorthgate Road 2.JPG

 

Now to think about how I'm going to build and mechanise all those signals. At least they're all reasonably simple!

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Have a google map view of Oxted station and you'l see what I'm talking about

 

If I have a track plan I'll post it

 

Mike

 

Interesting Mike, thanks for the info.

I've just had a look at Oxted and I see where you're coming from. A bit of internet digging didn't reveal any obvious signal diagrams or track plans though.

I originally had a layout more similar to Oxted but it became a bit cluttered on the narrow board - there is a lot of track compared to real life in my current design but somehow it looked even more crowded with the goods yard and bay at the same end.

I think I'm committed to my design now, track's ordered, wood has been bought and is in the garage and I'm busy doodling options for manually operating the signals...

J

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