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BR MK 1 SK Coach Number Series

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In light of this thread I picked up two of these MK1 coaches in ASDA this morning.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52594-model-railway-partwork-your-model-railway-village/

 

Unfortunately I don't have a reference to appropriate carriage numbers for these coaches.  A look around the internet comes up a number series of 24000-26217 but I'm not sure which ones had Commonwealth bogies etc,

 

What would be suitable numbers for a Midland Region and Eastern Region MK1 SK's with the existing bogies?

 

Thanks.

 

Mark

Edited by 46444

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Per Keith Parkin's "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" (Pendragon Books) Appendix 3 "Allocations" p208, the initial regional allocations as built were as below for the Eastern and Midland Regions.

 

E24150-63

E24180-279

E24447-538

E24549-56

E24569-75

E24591-650

E24691-700

E24754-90

E24796-815

E24945-25044

E25457-507

E25774-860

 

M24000-149

M24397-446

M24579-90

M24676-90

M24819-918

M25248-456

M25558-695

M25704-73

M25882-905

M25973-26023

M26035-8

 

The list is caveated as not being checked against primary sources in all cases.

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Per Keith Parkin's "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" (Pendragon Books) Appendix 3 "Allocations" p208, the initial regional allocations as built were as below for the Eastern and Midland Regions.

 

E24150-63

E24180-279

E24447-538

E24549-56

E24569-75

E24591-650

E24691-700

E24754-90

E24796-815

E24945-25044

E25457-507

E25774-860

 

M24000-149

M24397-446

M24579-90

M24676-90

M24819-918

M25248-456

M25558-695

M25704-73

M25882-905

M25973-26023

M26035-8

 

The list is caveated as not being checked against primary sources in all cases.

 

Evening David,

 

That's excellent.  I can get on and number my coach this evening.

 

I'll post some photos in the morning of it completed.

 

Thanks once again.

 

Mark

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Out of interest it doesn't list the builds with Commonwealth bogies does it?

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Don't forget that many would have been built prior to the change to lined maroon (c1956) so would have been delivered in blood and custard.  With the exception of any withdrawn due to accidents, they all would have been painted maroon eventually though.  The SK was the most numerous Mk1 design and I suggest finding a couple of pictures of maroon SKs with BR1 bogies (flickr.com search?) to be 100% sure you've got things right.

 

I'd be interested to see your results.  I'm trying to resist the 3 in my corner shop!

 

Alun

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Out of interest it doesn't list the builds with Commonwealth bogies does it?

 

Unfortunately not, but there is a short chapter on building costs which possibly allows some inferences to be made.

 

The notes state that "1961-63 build costs are substantially higher due to paying for dual heating, Commonwealth bogies and other improvements" and there is a table of typical costs for 1961-2 which includes the following:

 

Lot No.

30685 to Diagram 146   Type: SK   Builder : Derby   Vehicle Nos.: 25704-905. Ordered June 1960. Completion July 1962.

 

If you are happy to accept the implied inferences this build seems to be primarily for the Eastern/Midland Regions and almost all the coach numbers (M25704-73, E25774-860 and M25882-905) are included in the lists included in my previous reply above.

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Unfortunately not, but there is a short chapter on building costs which possibly allows some inferences to be made.

 

The notes state that "1961-63 build costs are substantially higher due to paying for dual heating, Commonwealth bogies and other improvements" and there is a table of typical costs for 1961-2 which includes the following:

 

Lot No.

30685 to Diagram 146   Type: SK   Builder : Derby   Vehicle Nos.: 25704-905. Ordered June 1960. Completion July 1962.

 

If you are happy to accept the implied inferences this build seems to be primarily for the Eastern/Midland Regions and almost all the coach numbers (M25704-73, E25774-860 and M25882-905) are included in the lists included in my previous reply above.

 

I hadn't seen David's post until I logged back in just now, but I can confirm that no coach prior to 25704 received Commonwealth bogies, although several isolated examples from the above and subsequent lots were fitted with BR1s from new, (for example 25708, 25731, 25742).

 

Out of interest, number's 24544, 24719, 25060/97, 25617, 25230, 25508/9/95-9, 25601-5/7-13/5/6/8/9/21-27 had their BR1 bogies replaced with B4s.  Unless I saw a photograph, I would avoid these numbers.  It is possible (if unlikely) that some of them would have been repainted into maroon and rebogied at the same time.

 

Alun

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Per Keith Parkin's "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" (Pendragon Books) Appendix 3 "Allocations" p208, the initial regional allocations as built were as below for the Eastern and Midland Regions.

E24150-63 Completed 12/51 Derby
E24180-279 E24180-219 Completed 7/52 Doncaster - E24220-79 Completed 7/52 York
E24447-538 Completed 1/55 York
E24549-56 Completed 1/55 York
E24569-75 Completed 1/55 York
E24591-650 Completed 3/52 BRCW
E24691-700 Completed 10/53 Cravens
E24754-90 Completed 5/54 Swindon
E24796-815 Completed 1/55 BRCW
E24945-25044 E24945-74 Completed 6/56 Derby - E24975-E25044 12/56 Derby
E25457-507 E25457 Completed 4/57 Doncaster - E25458-507 Completed 11/58 York
E25774-860 Completed 7/62 Derby

M24000-149 Completed 12/51 Derby
M24397-446 M24397-436 Completed 12/53 Derby - M24437-46 Completed 10/53 Wolverton
M24579-90 Completed 1/54 BRCW
M24676-90 Completed 1/53 Cravens
M24819-918 Completed 6/56 Derby
M25248-456 M25248-79 Completion 4/58 Metropolitan-Cammell - M25280-82 Completion 1/58 Metropolitan-Cammell - M25283-402 Completion 10/57 Wolverton - M25403-54 Completion 12/57 Wolverton - M25455 Completion 2/57 Metropolitan- Cammell - M25456 Completion 7/57 Gloucester RCW
M25558-695 Completion 9/58 Wolverton
M25704-73 Completion 7/62 Derby
M25882-905 Completion 7/62 Derby
M25973-26023 Completion 12/62 Derby
M26035-8 Completion 12/62 Derby

The list is caveated as not being checked against primary sources in all cases.


I have updated my original list to include details of order completion dates and the builders (as per Parkin) Edited by cary hill
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Morning David,

 

Thankyou once again.

 

This is a very comprehensive list  full of detail.  I've chosen my example to model.  See my blog later,

 

Hopefully it will be of use to those who have purchased these coaches.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

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.............................  I'm trying to resist the 3 in my corner shop!

 

 

Resistance is futile! ;)

 

Thanks Alun for the information.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

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Resistance is futile! ;)

 

Out of interest, which transfers have you used?

 

Alun

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Hello all,

 

Firstly fantastic work Mark, saw your blog and thought, "hmm better go and get a couple and try that!", so I have done.

 

Seeing as I don't model either the Midland or Eastern, would it be possible to be furnished with details of the initial Western allocation of Mk1 SKs? (Still with BR1 bogies).

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Richard

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I model late 50's/early 60's.  I know this might be 'how long's a piece of string?' but if I leave it unnumbered, can anyone say what might the earliest date be that a maroon SK would have had Commonwealth bogies pls?

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I model late 50's/early 60's.  I know this might be 'how long's a piece of string?' but if I leave it unnumbered, can anyone say what might the earliest date be that a maroon SK would have had Commonwealth bogies pls?

 

Hi,

 

If what is accepted as the definitive resource (Keith Parkin) is correct, which it is likely to be, 1962 would have seen the first SK on Commonwealth bogies.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Alun

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Hello all,

 

Firstly fantastic work Mark, saw your blog and thought, "hmm better go and get a couple and try that!", so I have done.

 

Seeing as I don't model either the Midland or Eastern, would it be possible to be furnished with details of the initial Western allocation of Mk1 SKs? (Still with BR1 bogies).

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Richard

 

 

The Parkin "bible" is still next to my computer so WR initial allocations, completion dates and builders were as below:

 

W24164-8       Completed by 12/51 : Builder : BR Derby

W24328-93     W24328-31 Completed by 5/52 : Builder : BR Ashford/Eastleigh - W24332-93 Completed by 6/53 Builder : BirminghamRCW.

W24539-48     Completed by 12/52 : Builder :  BR York

W24701-20     Completed by 7/53 : Builder : Cravens

W24746-53     Completed by 1/54 : Builder : BR Swindon

W25045-247   W25045-164 Completed by 5/56 : Builder : BR Wolverton - W25165-247 Completed by 11/57 : Builder : Metropolitan-Cammell

W25906-72     Completed 5/62 : Builder : BR Derby - Commonwealth bogies from new

W26060-137   Completed 6/63 : Builder : BR Derby - Commonwealth bogies from new

 

Coach numbers of WR SKs painted Chocolate and Cream Livery 24168,-328,-330-31,-334,-357,-361-62,-367,-381,-384,-390,-539-40,-543-45,-702,-712,-746,-748.

25046,-049-50,-059, -062,-065,-098,-100,-102,-104,-106,-111-2,-122-4,-135-64,-173,-175-8,-181,-183-4,-186-89,-191,-194.

 

The information re Commonwealth bogies and Chocolate and Cream liveries came from Robert Carroll's (robertcwp on RMWeb) coaching group on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info. It is a goldmine of information on coaching stock for 1948-1997.

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Evening David,

 

You know this had to come didn't you?

 

A friend of mine has asked me to respray a couple of these into BR (SR) green,  Guess what's coming?

 

Yes, you guessed right!

 

You don't have the BR (SR) coach number series for these SK's do you?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

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Evening David,

 

You know this had to come didn't you?

 

A friend of mine has asked me to respray a couple of these into BR (SR) green,  Guess what's coming?

 

Yes, you guessed right!

 

You don't have the BR (SR) coach number series for these SK's do you?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Not very many SKs were initially allocated to the BR(SR), presumably the SR requirement was for far fewer than for other BR Regions due number of electrified services and a large number of fairly new Bulleid coaches.

 

Just these few:

 

S24169 Completed by 12/51 Builder: BR Derby

S24302-27 Completed by 5/52 Builder : Builder : BR Ashford/Eastleigh

 

That's it.

 

If you want to choose the "right numbers" this web page may help in choosing http://www.semgonline.com/coach/CoachSets.txt as it shows the formations, services and areas where the SKs were used at various times - you want SR Sets Nos 866 to -91 towards the bottom of the list for most of them.

 

David

 

 

 

David

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Morning David,

 

Thanks once again for taking the time to look these details up and post them.  I don't model BR (SR) but that list you've linked to looks incredibly useful.

 

Hopefully, that will be the last request unless someone asks for 'SC' allocated ones!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited by 46444

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I am a little confused here. What type of bogie is fitted to the model?

I googled up pictures and it looks like a Mk1. If it is can I run this in a 1960 condition? (inter-regional to Bournemouth)

Edited by brightspark

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I am a little confused here. What type of bogie is fitted to the model?

I googled up pictures and it looks like a Mk1. If it is can I run this in a 1960 condition? (inter-regional to Bournemouth)

 

Hi,

 

The bogie type fitted to the model is what I (and many others) would call a BR1.  These bogies are what would have been underneath most SKs in 1960.  Black coach ends also fits in with your era (again as per the model).

 

Alun

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Hi

 

 

I think i may be able to help, i picked up a 1960 Ian Allan ABC for british railways coaches. It has a full list of numbers and prefixes.

 

 

The number series is 24000 to 25713 if you let me know the regional prefix you want i can marry up the right numbers.

 

 

As regards commonwealth bogies i would choose some early builds.   Cobach.

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No SK have had Commonwealth bogies in 1960. There was the occasional experimental bogie or single bolster BR1, everything else would have been a standard BR1 as per the model. Stick with what you have, but if you did want to fit Commonwealth's (from Replica Railways perhaps), chose a later 1962 onwards build (NOT EARLY BUILD) as already discussed in this thread.

 

Some earlier builds were retro fitted with B4s, but not until 1965(ish) onwards.

 

Alun

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Thanks guys.

C47 I am thinking that this will be for an inter-regional. Perhaps a midland coach either on the York Bournemouth or a stray from the S&D.

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Thanks guys.

C47 I am thinking that this will be for an inter-regional. Perhaps a midland coach either on the York Bournemouth or a stray from the S&D.

 

For the York to Bournemouth workings there were two sets: one SR and the other ER/NER (not LMR).  Both would have been crimson/cream until 1956. At some point after that, the SR set became green and the ER/NER stock would have been painted maroon.  Later, mixed S and NE and/or E rakes were not unheard of.

 

I know it's not the time period you're looking at, but I can tell you that SKs S24989 and S24980 were seen at York having arrived from Bournemouth in 1968 and they had the BR1 bogies as per the model.  Although I suspect they were green, they could have been blue/grey by then or possibly even maroon.

 

Alun

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