DJModels announce new models in N, OO and O

[jjb1970]

I think that when models are released then robust reviews and criticism are entirely reasonable and part of an important feedback process to support product improvement. I also think that customers can make their own decision on whether or not a model is good or bad in terms of their own acceptability criteria. I'm pretty easy to please and like all the models I've bought, that is not because I'm oblivious to faults but rather I accept that few models are perfect and tend to go with the theory that if it looks like what it is supposed to look like on a layout then I'm OK with it.

At the moment however there seems to be a tendency to take a greater interest in the politics of model manufacture than the models themselves. There seems to be as much interest in Bachmann prices as there is in Bachmann models, Hornby has been like a soap opera for a few years and so it goes on. DJM models should be judged as models when they appear, the criticism of delays or lack of information is not going to help anything and personally I would rather that Dave is busy with the actual project than spending too much time on this board or his web site, but that is just me. Yes DJM models may be delayed but so is almost every model train these days. The delays do not seem to be any worse than average (take a look at some of the delays on other models).

Which is a long winded way of saying wait for the models then judge the models as models, no more, no less, and avoid the criticims of those busting a gut to provide the things.

[NHY 581]

Johnson 0.4.4T, they don't like it up um you know.......

[DaveArkley]

Hiya,

I think your right, and I will endeavour to update more often on DJM projects.

However I do run the risk of repeating myself and some might find that more tedious and boring than normal.

 

With external clients, such as Hattons, FTG, Kernow and others to be named shortly, it's up to them to release info, not me. So I will, unless expressly told to by that client, remain quiet ( I hear the cheers of 'thank god' over the ether as I type this) on their models.

 

I'll try and update the website this evening after I give the class 71 update here and there.

 

Point taken guys, and apologies for not being as vocal as previous. This will change.

 

Oh, and a heads up for those interested, I'm attending Fareham show later this year with a stand and display. Some might want to come along and say 'hello' ;-)

 

Cheers

Dave

 

A very telling post!

 

It's a month later with no update to the timeline on the site....

 

You are worried that more regular posts would be 'repeating myself' which draws me to the conclusion that you've nothing new to say.

 

It's creeping up on two years since your initial announcement. No EPs, no news which leads me to think no progress, and that these are no nearer to delivery than the last set of CADs you posted on here.

 

You talked a great talk at Tings and at last years RM Web show, but this is looking like so much other vapour-ware. I've cancelled my pre-orders for N gauge Class 17s.

 

I'm very disappointed Dave.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

'Ow many times does he have to say the J94 will pay for the next one and so on? Some manufacturers state dates and don't meet them and people moan, DJ states he won't give a date and people call it vapourware and cancel. Why not wait to cancel IF another rtr one comes out in the meantime, if the goods don't exist you can't be held to the order

I waited three years for a model from the States that was available there but they wouldn't ship to the UK, so I eventually found a retailer who would order them but warned it would be slow waiting another run. They phoned up approaching the 35 month stage and said we have them but won't hold you to the order if interests have changed!

[DJM Dave]

A very telling post!

 

It's a month later with no update to the timeline on the site....

 

You are worried that more regular posts would be 'repeating myself' which draws me to the conclusion that you've nothing new to say.

 

It's creeping up on two years since your initial announcement. No EPs, no news which leads me to think no progress, and that these are no nearer to delivery than the last set of CADs you posted on here.

 

You talked a great talk at Tings and at last years RM Web show, but this is looking like so much other vapour-ware. I've cancelled my pre-orders for N gauge Class 17s.

 

I'm very disappointed Dave.

 

Hi Dave,

I understand your point of view but , as I'm sure you will understand, I cannot agree with it.

In the, nearly, 2 years since I announced the first tranche of models I've done the following,

 

1) shown cad / cams immediately

2) introduced for FTg models their SPA wagon

3) retooled the Beattie

4) introduced the retooled Beattie

5) re designed the O2, and that's been tooled and deco samples approved for production

6) shown re modelled cad cam designs of all my models to a state that I was , and said so, happy to send them to tooling when funds permit.

7) tooled the J94

8 ) being not happy with the J94 had it re tooled and altered to make it even better

9) had the first successful crowd funding appeal for a loco ( the 71) in the world

10) designed the class 71

11) designed the king

12) designed the 14xx

13) re designed the gate stock

14) sent the gate stock for tooling

15) cad designed the gwr 0-6-0 for Kernow

16) cad designed the D600 loco for Kernow

17) started full design work on a host of other projects.

 

Now, this all may be vapour ware to you but most is all tangible stuff. The J94, Beattie, O2 etc.

 

I understand your frustrations, but since I started, China has increased costs year on year by 20% and in fact I have sat on price rises across my range, although this may change and I will get more brick bats.

 

The J94 tooling bill doubled ( yup doubled) and I had to find another £xxxxx down the back of the sofa I hadn't budgeted for to complete the model.

 

To add to it, yes it's been a month, but there have be updates on projects on my web site, but only when I have something to say.

It's difficult to fill pages with nothing each week, as weeks and months do go by without any news.

 

For example, an xxx loco is authorised to tooling. Fair enough I say it is.....but....... It takes 4 weeks to lay out the tooling........what do I fill with? Then it takes 4-6 weeks to tool if there a slot........ Again when do I update? Then a few weeks to first EP. So I tell about the EP, that's fair enough, then another 6 weeks to second EP then if all goes well I update then...... But seriously, this is all predicated on getting a model to tooling, and last time I looked I haven't asked anyone to contribute to any of my range except the 71.

And I'm sure not many reading this are altruistic millionaires that can help........

 

So I plod on, telling people it will come when I get monies back, and not before. However the business plan ( revised) is sound and will start to progress things within a few months rather than 6/8 months or even 2 years.

 

I'm sorry that you've cancelled your class 17, as it will be a nice model when it arrives, setting new standards in N gauge diesel locomotives, but as I said at the start of this missive, I understand, even if I don't agree with, your point.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Horsetan]

A very telling post!

 

It's a month later with no update to the timeline on the site....

 

You are worried that more regular posts would be 'repeating myself' which draws me to the conclusion that you've nothing new to say.

 

It's creeping up on two years since your initial announcement. No EPs, no news which leads me to think no progress, and that these are no nearer to delivery than the last set of CADs you posted on here.

 

You talked a great talk at Tings and at last years RM Web show, but this is looking like so much other vapour-ware. I've cancelled my pre-orders for N gauge Class 17s.

 

I'm very disappointed Dave.

 

 

Patience is no longer relevant in the world of RTR. People want it, and want it yesterday.

[mevaman]

Dave (Arkley)

 

After all, it is not a kidney that you are waiting for!

 

It seems that patience for some is no longer a virtue for some.

 

Andrew

[Horsetan]

Dave (Arkley)

 

After all, it is not a kidney that you are waiting for!....

No, but it might be a replacement heart or spleen. I tend to get the feeling that the risk of a heart attack is increased every time a new RTR model is announced.

 

Has the NHS planned for this?

[NHY 581]

Patience is no longer relevant in the world of RTR. People want it, and want it yesterday.

 

With obvious apologies, Billy Connolly summed it up in his own unique way.......

 

‘We want this! And that! We demand a share in that, and most of that, some of this, and f**king all of that! Less of that, and more of this, and f**king plenty of this! And another thing, we want it now! I want it yesterday, I want f**king more tomorrow, and the demands will all be changed then so f**king stay awake!’

 

Rob.

[PLD]

Hi Dave,

In the, nearly, 2 years since I announced the first tranche of models I've done the following,

 

1) shown cad / cams immediately

2) introduced for FTg models their SPA wagon

3) retooled the Beattie

4) introduced the retooled Beattie

5) re designed the O2, and that's been tooled and deco samples approved for production

6) shown re modelled cad cam designs of all my models to a state that I was , and said so, happy to send them to tooling when funds permit.

7) tooled the J94

8 ) being not happy with the J94 had it re tooled and altered to make it even better

9) had the first successful crowd funding appeal for a loco ( the 71) in the world

10) designed the class 71

11) designed the king

12) designed the 14xx

13) re designed the gate stock

14) sent the gate stock for tooling

15) cad designed the gwr 0-6-0 for Kernow

16) cad designed the D600 loco for Kernow

17) started full design work on a host of other projects.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

What that list does show Dave is a lot of work going into other peoples models. Understandable in that they have the resources to progress more rapidly than you do, but could give the impression you are neglecting your own-branded products in favour of those...

 

What isn't clear to many with the commissioned models is how much input you have and how much the commissioners themselves do. i.e. can you be considered the 'manufacturer' or just an 'agent'. My understanding is Kernow in particular, like to have a LOT of involvement  - they write the detail spec, specify liveries, sign off the CADs etc not you, and with FTG, Hugh had the model almost ready to go before you became involved so for those at least, would lean towards the latter relationship.

 

Now if that's what it takes to bring in the funds to do the J94 etc, fair enough, but one of your pledges was to be more open and honest than other manufacturers...

[kandc_au]

Why don't we all just dig our boots into Dave and knock him seneless, and if he rises, do it again.

Just so we can make sure he is completely down and out and wait for the next bunny prepared to spend money to try to get established and do it all again.

me, you all whinge that you want things done, someone is prepared to stand up and HAS outlined how is going to fund same, NO-ONE has had to fork out money and yet you all still aren't happy!!!!!!

 

Maybe you would all be better off waiting for Hornby or Bachmann to make the models you want....who cares if you are 6ft under!

 

khris

[HillsideDepot]

By sharing his plans surely Dave is being more open than other manufacturers? I mean, how dare Hornby release CADs of their new GWR coaches without telling me they were going to do them the second the idea popped into the designer's head! (nothing against Hornby, just thinking of a recent occurrence)

 

We know that we have triplication on one OO steam loco and duplication on another. We might have had duplication of an N-gauge class 17 (we might yet, who knows) had Dave's plans been kept secret. But we might now have a DJ class 17 and something else from manufacturer X who was planning a 17 but never said so publicly. We don't know, and probably never will.

 

I'm sure all the manufacturers have plans leading many years into the future, some share, some don't. It is difficult for Dave when we has relatively little at this stage to show for his hard work, some will moan that it is nothing but vapourware. Maybe Dave should have vanished for a couple of years after leaving Dapol and then released the J94 and so on without prior warning? But if he did that we'd hear "why has he done a class 17 without letting me save up for them?" or "typical, just as I start a GWR branch line Dave comes along with a class 17, if only I'd have known I'd have built...." 

 

And think of another alternative, Dave could have left Dapol and said "I'm done with toy trains, lets make my fortune in the [insert item of choice] business" 

[Andy Y]

I have something sat on the desk in front of me as I type this which is clear physical evidence of investment of time and money which I also showed to a couple of people yesterday whose opinion I value and it attracted favourable comment. This will be shared in conjunction with the publication of the mag in a couple of weeks.

 

Picking over CADs and going back to reference material also takes some commitment and that's before instructions for amendment are given. It's evident that some progress reports and the evidence supporting them can't be given for understandable commercial reasons at this time too. If design work features elements which, based on evidence, are not included in a competitor's product it would be folly to show too much. So just because we may not have seen something or may not have been told about it; it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people just like to make themselves heard and it's down to the observer to interpret if that comment is made from an informed perspective, or not.

[DJM Dave]

What that list does show Dave is a lot of work going into other peoples models. Understandable in that they have the resources to progress more rapidly than you do, but could give the impression you are neglecting your own-branded products in favour of those...

 

What isn't clear to many with the commissioned models is how much input you have and how much the commissioners themselves do. i.e. can you be considered the 'manufacturer' or just an 'agent'. My understanding is Kernow in particular, like to have a LOT of involvement  - they write the detail spec, specify liveries, sign off the CADs etc not you, and with FTG, Hugh had the model almost ready to go before you became involved so for those at least, would lean towards the latter relationship.

 

Now if that's what it takes to bring in the funds to do the J94 etc, fair enough, but one of your pledges was to be more open and honest than other manufacturers...

Hi,

 

Good question and one I've answered more than a few times on this forum.

 

There is not a project either pending or completed that I have not had design input ( except the SPA where my skills were used elsewhere to bring it to market).

 

So, my involvement will be and can be whatever the client wishes (it's his money after all) However to say specifics, would not be a correct thing to do.

Cheers

Dave

[Budgie]

A very telling post!

 

It's a month later with no update to the timeline on the site....

 

You are worried that more regular posts would be 'repeating myself' which draws me to the conclusion that you've nothing new to say.

 

It's creeping up on two years since your initial announcement. No EPs, no news which leads me to think no progress, and that these are no nearer to delivery than the last set of CADs you posted on here.

 

You talked a great talk at Tings and at last years RM Web show, but this is looking like so much other vapour-ware. I've cancelled my pre-orders for N gauge Class 17s.

 

I'm very disappointed Dave.

Dear Dave Arkley

 

You must have wanted at least one N gauge class 17, or you wouldn't have ordered them (in the plural). Now you have cancelled that/those order(s), but you obviously still want one/them (if you don't, why did you pre-order them in the first place?). Since nobody else produces models of class 17, how are you going to get them? Scratch building, I suppose. Good for you, it's nice to see new people attempting scratch building in N gauge these days.

 

Dear DJM Dave

• Please don't change one thing about how you operate.
• There will be other people who will buy the model(s) that Dave Arkley cancelled
• If your modus operandi means people start scratch building models they can't get from you before you've even thought of how to make them, that can only be good for the hobby.
• Most of us are quite happy with things the way they are, including me.

Keep up the good work.

[PaulCheffus]

 

Maybe you would all be better off waiting for Hornby or Bachmann to make the models you want.

 

khris

Hi

 

Or make them yourself.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Andrew F]

I wouldn't wait if I wanted a particular loco; even one on a whim. Have fun and build. it's very rewarding.

[BigAndy]

Dave at DJM - Get knocked down seven times, get up eight..............

 

Keep going mate!

 

cheers

 

Andy

[rembrow]

It's a shame that this issue keeps being brought up against Dave and DJM. If you've followed his creation of DJ Models, it'll be known that he has started it from his own money, most of which was from a property re-mortgage. Unlike other rtr model makers, his funds for tooling are dependant on profit and income from each model produced, so his business strategy has to be to produce one model at a time. This was always quite clear from the beginning, with the 'oo' gauge J94 being the first. I'm assuming that with the 'oo' market being likely to produce more sales, the potential income is greater, so a logical choice. The work that DJM is doing with Kernow and Hattons and other commissions is using their money, so Dave is providing the design and production skills and time for a fee. That keeps him in 'bread and butter' and a roof over his head until his own products come to market and hopefully produce net income. The variation, which has allowed another model to be developed earlier is the Class 71 in 'oo' gauge, for which the development and first production run is funded from advance orders with full payment in advance. Without that 'crowd sourcing' that model would sit at the back of the queue. I'm involved in that project, and I'm fully behind it, even though another large manufacturer has stepped in with a rival product.

 

If someone wants to give the 'n' gauge Class 17 a 'leg up' maybe they could put together a 'crowd source' funding programme.

 

If these brickbats keep being thrown at Dave/DJM, will he keep bouncing back, as there is only so much unjustified criticism that a person can take. Those who are interested in DJM products have to be aware of the background and business funding that the company has to work to and if that timescale doesn't suit you, look for an alternative, but please don't keep throwing the bricks otherwise at some point, DJM might not be there.

[Guest 40-something]

Some people do need a reality check.  DJM Dave is ploughing his own money into his business, he is not backed up by shareholders, nor part of an established multi-national brand, and if things go wrong then he will no doubt be in financial doo-doo.  He is essentially a one-man band who wants to bring top notch products to the market, and to get things right takes time, and if things are right, they will sell ,which will allow Dave to re-invest the profits back into the business, keep the creditors happy etc etc etc.

 

Who can blame him for taking on commissioned projects?  Its brings money to the coffers, which helps finance the other projects and, just as importantly, gets the brand noticed. Some folk need to remember that all the work that goes into bringing a model to the market doesn't just cost the £100 it costs to buy, there are tens, and sometimes 100's of thousands of pounds involved.  Each CAD redo costs money, each re-tool costs money, each EP model correction costs money, each livery correction costs money and so on.  And time, lots of it.

 

DJM Models is not one of the "it'll do, they'll buy it anyway" operations, Dave wants to get it right, first time and I am confident he will.

 

Remember the old saying "No news is good news"

[farren]

Its a wonder dave still bothers to read through the website, if people are still moaning even after hes made the time scales and reasons known to everyone. if they had bothered to read the topic.

 

 

I am really starting to feel sorry for poor Dave. He as had the balls to put his money on the line knowing he could lose the lot if it all goes pear shaped. Hes also put his plans on the table which puts him in danger of another company producing the same model faster and cheaper just to put him out of the Market.

 

I for one have to give dave a nod for having a go at this madness starting a new RTR componey and will be more than happy when I receive my LNER model from him even if it take 5years+.

 

Ps have I mentioned a Johnsons 0-4-4t would be a great model

[woodenhead]

We all have to remember the world of modelling has changed quite a bit since Dave first went it alone.

 

Labour costs are spiralling yet some people seem to think Dave has a bottomless pit of cash he can call on to build the models he has promised. He was clear at the outset, one model builds the cash reserve for the next.

 

We've seen Hornby suffer during the consolidation of manufacturing in China, currently it looks like it is Bachmann's turn to sweat a little as production falls behind where they would like it to be whilst they get hit by the mandatory wage increases. Dapol have clearly had difficulties of late hence the proliferation of model reruns whilst they get their new stuff to market.

 

New players are coming into the market and they are unencumbered by headaches that have befallen the traditional big two.

 

Dave is a one man band so it shouldn't be surprising that if he only has one model (to fund the next) in development; that whilst that happens he takes other work on, whether or not he takes on all aspects of that 3rd party development or is just an 'agent' is actually none of our damn business. However, I would say those 3rd parties must need something he has otherwise why would they employ him, give the guy a break please.

 

We've all seen the J94, it does exist, it's not vapourware.

[NHY 581]

 

 

I think the quality of comment varies considerably, subject to the orifice from which the noise projects.........

 

Anyway.......about this Johnson 0 4 4T........

[Gilloverland]

and what about a G5?

[farren]

Sorry they don't come in crimson!