MOVING COAL - A Colliery Layout in 0 Gauge

[Arthur]

 

Thanks for that PGH. The Sandersons-Worsley tip section was the first bit I visited but as I was only 8 or so at the time the detail of the arrangement went over my head.

 

 

.

[Poggy1165]

This thread (and thus the layout) gets progressively more stunning as it goes along. It's rare to see genuine engineering and genuine artistry in the same project. Even rarer when it's a layout built by an individual, not a collective.

 

The point with the rail rising above the other rail is just mind-boggling. So simple, in a way, and yet so beautifully executed.

[Sandhole]

Evening All,

      Seasons Greetings and all the best for the new year.

       In answer to the question about the Worsley tippler..

   The pointwork setup was exactly the same as modelled by PGH. I was never able to see it in operation , as a boy. I think most of the coal was going out via Sandersons Sidings by then. I do, however, distinctly remember exploring the whole tippler setup one Saturday with my Dad.

 The way the rail went over the top of the other fascinated me. I think the rail tops were rusty as well, which would lead me to believe that the tippler was not used that much by then.

The tippler that you have created PGH, has, like so much of your layout, brought back some happy memories!!!

                                                    Chris.

[PGH]

The supporting framework for the tippler is more or less complete, it will be grit blasted and painted before being finally fixed in position.  I don't know what colour the steelwork was painted, it seems to have been a fairly light colour latterly.  If in doubt I usually go for grey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the layout was first planned it was intended to place this tippler in a corner and little if any of the structure below and beyond the actual tippler building would have been visible, so when surveying the prototype I didn't take much notice of what was under or beyond the actual tippler building.  In its current position the situation is rather different and the few rather distant views available of the prototype didn't offer much help, so the detail under the building is only a vague representation of the prototype.  Beyond the building is 'off scene' and merely serves to direct the coal into a suitable container.

 

It would have been nice to include all the structure and part of the canal basin with the coal discharging into a canal barge, given more prototype detail, space, time, patience, etc, etc.

Edited February 5, 2017 by PGH

[PGH]

The first trial run of the part completed structure.

 

 

I'm reasonably happy that it operates more or less as planned, although more work is required, i.e.:

1.  Provision of a mechanism to give a slow and even movement to the tipping table.

2.  A catch and better hinges on the wagon doors, and I'm not sure whether the existing plastic hinges are robust enough for long term use.

3.  Some means of regulating the speed of the empty wagons beyond the turnout.

Edited February 5, 2017 by PGH

[MarshLane]

Hi Phil,

Superb and wonderful really don't seem to cover it! Always enjoy your updates, keep up the good work!

 

Rich

[RGSrr]

Philip

Fabulous...........

 

Slowing the wagons - static grass / weeds ?

Steady movement drive.  Once the overbalance table is tucked away inside its ill lit shed will it be possible to introduce a drive system akin to the rotary dumper i.e. pull up pull down stall motor.

Worth waiting for, thanks for sharing

John JP

[Barnaby]

Simply STUNNING Phil. 

 

Regards

[ColinK]

To slow the waggons down, how about a bit of sponge glued to the waggon floor lightly rubbing against one wheel, acts as a brake.

[Guest Isambarduk]

To slow the waggons down, how about a bit of sponge glued to the waggon floor lightly rubbing against one wheel, acts as a brake.

 

Or how about a more elegant solution from the era of spring-drive, or clockwork as we called it, the Teleguv (described by Jack Ray in 'A Lifetime With 'O' Gauge', p 27-28):

 

www.classicogauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1447

 

which would ensure that the wagon was braked only when it was travelling too fast; but life is too short?

 

David

[ColinK]

Or a working waggon retarder like those at BR's now closed marshalling yards!

 

As for opening the end door; I'm a member of the Romiley Methodist Railway Modellers, on our recently sold 0 gauge layout Gillan & Brown we had a working end tipper. The waggon end doors were held shut by the hook of a Hornby tension link coupling fitted to one side of the waggon engaging on a bit of wire attached to the bottom of the door. This kept the door shut while moving the train. The tipper had a small ramp which pushed up the coupling hook thereby releasing the door to open. It worked fine over many years and was invisible to the public at exhibitions. I think there is an article about it in The 0 Gauge Guild magazine or Railway Modeller. Rather than use real coal, we used aquarium gravel, much cleaner.

[Barnaby]

I can vouch for the working of the Gillan & Brown system. I wanted to have something similar on my layout to give some operational interest and they kindly forwarded me their instructions, 13 pages on the build.

The T-hook system is fitted away from the viewing side to the wagon and operated by a small ramp that released it.  They then had a screw tipple which raised the wagon, the door swung open and out came the load. 

The operation both opening and closing is exactly the same as the T-lock does normally. 

If you wanted you could fashion your own hook and latch to make it look less Hornby like.  I did my testing using just the hook out of a Hornby nem T-lock coupling. 

 

They have a "U" shaped latch hook retainer [a staple] which is fitted into the wagon door side.  When the door is closed it is retained shut by the T-lock hook.  I had to butcher the wagon door first and make it top swing which was simple enough.

The retainer is 2-fold in its operation, the top of the retainer stops the hook opening too far and the bottom allows it to re-latch when closing. 

 

Very neat, very simple, very good, very satisfied.

 

Best

Edited February 10, 2017 by Barnaby

[PGH]

Some interesting ideas there, Thanks. 

 

Personally I'd like to keep the wagons as unaltered as possible even if it means some compromises in the operation.  I appreciate that a layout intended for public exhibition requires "hands off" operation but for a home layout its just a matter of personal preference and its quite acceptable to me to use some external means (a finger if necessary !) to operate a door catch.

 

I spent several hours trying to get 6 identical wagons to roll exactly the same without success.  Polishing the journals, polishing the bearings and of course oiling made little difference.  So the minimum gradient has to be set for the worst running wagon, which will consistently just run off the tipping table.  On the steeper section some form of retardation will definitely be required, something that doesn't look out of place, like vegetation in the form of small bushes rubbing against the wheels, or something inconspicuous like clear nylon brush bristles set vertically catching the axles.

 

I don't have any problem using real coal and just sieve it regularly to remove any dust.

[peter220950]

I haven't got to the stage of working prototype yet, but to locate wagons on my tippler I am considering rare earth magnets under the rails at relevant points. It occurs to me that a row of magnets, in the ballast, under the wheel treads might provide some braking to the rolling wagons.

 

Peter

[Guest Isambarduk]

It occurs to me that a row of magnets, in the ballast, under the wheel treads might provide some braking to the rolling wagons.

 

It's an appealing thought, isn't it, but I find it difficult to see the physics of where the energy is dissipated: in principle, each magnet will tend to accelerate the wagons on their approach as much as they retard them on their leaving. 

 

More like what is needed is a permanent magnet on each wagon that, as it passes over a series of coils in the track, generates a small voltage in the coils that causes a current to flow and dissipate power in a resistors connected to each coil.  Effectively, the moving magnets and the stationary coils are generators that produce the power , which is lost as a tiny amount of heat in the resistors. An added advantage is that, the faster a wagon travels over the coils, the more power that is absorbed from it, which is what is required.

 

I'm full of ideas for other people to try, me ;-)

 

David
 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Isambarduk

[peter220950]

I did say I hadn't tried it yet!

 

However it might be worth looking at the science of Eddy current braking, though it may involve slight rearrangement of magnet positioning.

 

Peter

[brack]

I did say I hadn't tried it yet!

 

However it might be worth looking at the science of Eddy current braking, though it may involve slight rearrangement of magnet positioning.

 

Peter

If nothing else, dropping cylindrical neodymium magnets down copper pipes and waiting ages for them to come out the bottom is just fun. Even when you know how it works and you've done it plenty of times your brain doesn't like something that falls too slowly.

[PGH]

Oh Dear !  it seems this problem of wagon control might be rather complicated.  However there may be a rather simpler possible method involving a thread and bent piece of wire which I 'knocked up' in about 5 minutes (or perhaps maybe 10 ! ).

 

 

 

The wire is bent to form a hook with "feet" so it stands ready to catch the leading axle of the wagon

 

 

 

its attached to a thread running through a hole with a counterweight at the end

 

 

 

and operates thus - slacken the thread and the hook drops off the axle and returns to its original position, where it may require adjusting ready for the next wagon.

 

In operation you would send the wagons down in order of their running capability with the freest running, which would tend to travel the furthest, first.  Obviously this will need some further development, the wagon is perhaps still running too fast so maybe the hook should be higher up the track and it needs a rather neater and less conspicuous hook, but I think it may have some possibilities.

 

[RThompson]

Why not put a sprung wire onto each wagon axle?

 

I need to do this to my brake vans as they would hold the couplings tight but no good if you wanted to fly shunt!

[PGH]

Why not put a sprung wire onto each wagon axle?

 

I need to do this to my brake vans as they would hold the couplings tight but no good if you wanted to fly shunt!

 

Thanks for your suggestion, but any form of fixed retardation on the wagons would stop them running off the tippler.  In effect its like fly shunting but without the momentum of a locomotive to give it the initial shove.

Edited February 14, 2017 by PGH

[PGH]

The tippler support framework is now painted and firmly planted in position:

 

 

It was grit blasted and primed with U-Pol Acid #8 etch primer, giving a light grey finish.  At this point I wondered whether the finish coat should be light grey or light green like the colliery steelwork - and decided on the latter.  The prototype was certainly a light colour when I photographed it in 1965, unfortunately in black & white.  However it is intended to be "based on" rather than "model of" the prototype so I'm not too worried if the colour is different - maybe the even more vague "inspired by" the prototype might be more appropriate ! 

 

 

The steelwork is reasonably like the prototype, the timber underneath somewhat less so.  I'm not sure what purpose some of this timber served and maybe it was part of an earlier structure.  The structure had to be rebuilt in 1914 after being demolished by a runaway train.  The chute is rather simpler than the prototype, which comprised timber and steelwork and led directly on to the boat loading facility.  The model chute has a removable extension to take it over the edge of the baseboard.  The switch in the facia bottom right operates the tippler.

 

The next job is to provide the timber decking to the structure and then the building on top, which will have a removable side wall to view the operation of the tippler.

Edited March 22, 2017 by PGH

[PGH]

The operating mechanism for the tippler:

 

 

This comprises a 100rpm gearhead motor connected to a M8 threaded shaft via two old Meccano gears.  The shaft drives a captive nut in a brass fitting with an extended arm to which is fixed a cord connected to the tipping table.  It's fitted on the layout upside down from this view.

 

 

 

This diagram shows how the mechanism works.  The operating cord passes through a brass tube in the retaining wall.  It should really have a small pulley at the change of direction but I flared the end of the tube instead to ease its passage.  The mechanism is operated by a DPDT switch and controlled by micro switches at each end of the movement.  The most critical part of the movement is at the end, returning the table to line up exactly with the fixed entry/exit track and this is done independent of the mechanism by a timber beam under the table.  The mechanism is therefore arranged to overwind slightly and slacken off the drive cord at that end of the travel.

 

 

 

View underneath.  12v supply enters top left, DPDT operating switch bottom centre right and operating cord connecting to table top right.

Edited March 22, 2017 by PGH

[Ruston]

That's proper engineering and puts the mechanism for my own tippler to shame.

[PGH]

The timber tippler platform has been installed:

 

 

First temporary side and end pieces were clamped in position

 

 

 

then a total of 59 stripwood planks were cut to the required length

 

 

 

and fixed in position after painting.  The painting was done before final installation as the underside of the planks can be seen from below through the framework.

The prototype had a mechanism in the rear left hand corner connected by gearing to the tippler table but without sufficient detail being available this had to be omitted.

 

[PGH]

The Peco mineral wagons with opening end doors intended for use in the end tippler have now been provided with door catches.

 

 

 

 

 

These comprise a short length of nickel silver wire passing through a hole drilled in the buffer beam with the ends bent upwards to form the catch.  On the inner end is silver soldered a crank or lever connected to an operating wire with a hooked end just below the solebar.  It can thus be operated by the shunter's pole without touching the wagon, although you may need to make sure the door is fully closed before returning the catch to its vertical position.

 

 

 

 

The end of the operating wire is not too intrusive - I think.  It would have been possible to move this to the inner side of the axleguard where it would have represented the prototype's bottom door lever, but that would have involved removing some of the underframe which had already been partly filled with lead.