D11 from T9?

[S.A.C Martin]

Hi Chaps,

 

Just taken delivery of an old D11 white metal body with tender (unknown origin, though it is quite, quite old).

 

The real life D11 had, I think, 6ft 9in wheels and the real life T9s had 6ft 7in drivers. The question is this - could a modern T9 chassis from Hornby be utilised under the D11 to provide a DCC ready solution to the problem of powering said D11, or is the coupled wheelbase and driver size too big a difference to look entirely accurate (bearing in mind I'm not 100% certain the body is scale length)?

 

I'll post some pics when I'm back at my laptop, but suffice to say this is a restoration/kitbash job of sorts and any and all advice is appreciated.

 

And as an afterthought - I've also take delivery of a J11 with an old Hornby/triang 0-6-0 chassis attached. I may swap it out for a DCC fitted jinty chassis...!

[edcayton]

Bec did a J11 at the samr time I bought my J17(forty years ago for goodness sake)to fit the Tri-ang 0-6-0 chassis. I am fairly sure that either Bec or Wills did a body kit for a D11 to fit the old Tri-ang L1 4-4-0 chassis.

I also remember seeing a review in the Modeller of a replacement chassis(kit?) for the L1 as a lot of kits used it and there were no other 4-4-0 chassis available.

Sorry, got no idea about the dimensions of the T9 chassis and mine is too precious for me to attempt to dismantle it!

 

Ed

[Red Devil]

D10 an D11s wheelbase is given as 6ft 6in+8ft 9in+10ft. When Coachman remotored his 2P wth a T9 chasssis I seem to remember himsaying it was a 10ft coupled wheelbase, but that's only from memory and I can't get on RMweb3 to check.

 

Cast kits, Bec did one, I had a built up one some years ago, looked the part to me at the time, there was also an offering from Magna models, I attempted this one in my youth, don't even consider it if you ever see one, best purchased with a view to using as ballast! Little Engines did both D10 and 11 I think, I would think a scratch body shouldn't be too hard.

 

I have a sneaky feeling that one will turn up in the Bachmann range someday.....especially if the O4 is a sucess.

[S.A.C Martin]

Sorry about the lack of a response chaps - RMwebs been down and I've had essays to write. Here's a few pics of the locos in question. I will be stripping the paint away over the next few days and starting restoration work on the bodies, a possible complete dismantling could be in order.

 

D11:

 

 

 

 

 

 

J11:

 

 

 

 

 

See what you make of them - but I'm not entirely sure either of those tenders is suitable for the D11 both are GCR but I thought the D11s had something different.

 

I'm taking the chassis' down to the LMC tomorrow to see if either works - I think one is a Hornby L1 and the other a Triang 3F.

[great central]

The D11 does look like a Bec one but the one I have doesn't have rails on the tender top, just the solid plate.

The J11 could also be Bec, but once again, the tender is wrong, I believe it's a GN type. The D11 tender would be ok with the J11 but that then leaves the D11 without a tender

Perhaps see how/if they run and decide what to do then

[OFFTHE RAILS]

The Hornby T9 has a scale 10' coupled wheelbase and the D10/D11 Directors also had a 10' wheelbase.

Will the BEC body fit on a Hornby T9 chassis? I don't know - the problem may be that the width available within the BEC body may be insufficient to clear the Hornby mechanism.

Best Of Luck,

Ian

[S.A.C Martin]

The Hornby T9 has a scale 10' coupled wheelbase and the D10/D11 Directors also had a 10' wheelbase.

Will the BEC body fit on a Hornby T9 chassis? I don't know - the problem may be that the width available within the BEC body may be insufficient to clear the Hornby mechanism.

Best Of Luck,

Ian

 

Thanks Ian - that helps greatly. I may give it a go after all. It'll need some re-wiring and similar, but it could be done

 

The J11 is going to be quite straight forward - I have used a DCC jinty chassis to fit a triang 3F before, and it's looking quite a straightforward job.

 

As for the D11 tender - anyone know where I can get a suitable replacement?

 

Many thanks for the replies so far chaps

[Markeg]

Hi S A C Martin,

 

I too have the Bec D11 which was made for static display when I bought it and wondered the same thing about rtr chassis's under it.

 

Here is what I found, having both the Hornby T9 and Schools. The T9 wheel base is too small between the rear bogie wheel and the front driving wheel. The schools however is a near match with both the D11 Director body and the drawings. I would attempt to use the schools myself. You will have to take off the valve gear and cylinders.

 

The tender chassis on my D11 was a poor plastic thing cut in half and put together. As I said this was made for static display and poorly done. I think the GCR tender will fit the scholls tender chassis.

 

I hope this helps before you pull the beautiful T9 apart.

 

I have attached the D10 Director 'Walter Burgh Gair', This is a PDK kit, I will have to wait to get one. I have not taken a photo of the Bec Director yet, beacuse I have not finished it

 

cheers

 

Mark Gair in OZ

 

[Red Devil]

Looks like the D11 has been built with an early GC coal rail type tender, think some J10/11 D10 etc had this typelater being plated in, seem to remeber a few pics like that in George Dows book.

 

Don't know if these are any use to you, pair of std GC type tender sides, god knows where or what from, they must have been in the spares box for 15-20 years.

 

 

Mark eg lovely D10, stop putting such nice pics of ex GC locos up, you'll corrupt me back to all things Gorton!!

[t-b-g]

Hello Simon.

 

It is good to see you dabbling in GCR matters! The kits do look very much like the Bec kits. They were considered half decent when they came out (probably as long ago as the 1960s but even I am too young to remember) but are a bit basic compared to modern kits. The tender with the J11 is indeed a GN type and I am not aare that any J11 ever ran with one. The D11s had GCR 4000 gallon tenders. Some had the standard version and some had the slightly wider and internally different self trimming type. The Scottish D11s had another variation without water scoop gear. The whole GCR tender story is very complicated and even the preserved examples are confusing in the details.

 

Perseverance did an etched tender kit and there was one from Jaylines (might have been the same one as I think rod Neep was involved with both. There have been some cast kits from Ks (from their "Sam fay" kit), Little engines, Millholme and others. I understand that South east Finecast may have taken over the Millholme range so it may be possible to find a cast tender through them (from the Q4 and B5 kits). If you can wait a while, when the Bachmann 04 comes out it will have a 4000 gallon tender. Although the sample one I have seen has, what I think, is an ROD tender (no water scoop gear) rather than a proper GC version.

 

I will be very interested to see if the T9 works does fit. I can't see a D11, with big splashers and a huge boiler and firebox, having less room than the dainty little T9!!

[t-b-g]

Hello Simon.

 

It is good to see you dabbling in GCR matters! The kits do look very much like the Bec kits. They were considered half decent when they came out (probably as long ago as the 1960s but even I am too young to remember) but are a bit basic compared to modern kits. The tender with the J11 is indeed a GN type and I am not aare that any J11 ever ran with one. The D11s had GCR 4000 gallon tenders. Some had the standard version and some had the slightly wider and internally different self trimming type. The Scottish D11s had another variation without water scoop gear. The whole GCR tender story is very complicated and even the preserved examples are confusing in the details.

 

Perseverance did an etched tender kit and there was one from Jaylines (might have been the same one as I think rod Neep was involved with both. There have been some cast kits from Ks (from their "Sam fay" kit), Little engines, Millholme and others. I understand that South east Finecast may have taken over the Millholme range so it may be possible to find a cast tender through them (from the Q4 and B5 kits). If you can wait a while, when the Bachmann 04 comes out it will have a 4000 gallon tender. Although the sample one I have seen has, what I think, is an ROD tender (no water scoop gear) rather than a proper GC version.

 

I will be very interested to see if the T9 works does fit. I can't see a D11, with big splashers and a huge boiler and firebox, having less room than the dainty little T9!!

[S.A.C Martin]

Firstly, red devil, PM function isn't working - I'd be interested in buying those from you, insomuch as I think I suitably bash the current tender (which seems to have a GCR bottom and a GNR top - most odd!)

 

Secondly - Hiya Tony! I couldn't stay away from the GCR forever! All of those lovely ex-GCR tank engines I will build in the future for Copley Hill...

 

Thanks very much for the information regarding the tenders. I'm uncertain at the moment which of the D11s this will become (I have a feeling there's a difference in the cab side sheets to take into account for different names) so will probably just go to the undercoat stage for the time being. The tender issue aside, the proportions aren't bad, it just needs some TLC. That said...

 

...the D11 is hopefully going to be a straight forward take apart, rebuild and refettle, and repaint job. Having compared the two chassis to use under it at a friend's today, I'm definitely going for the T9 as it has a better chance of fitting the body - the schools chassis is, by contrast, a bit wider at the motor end. I think the next job will be seeing if I can add a suitable backhead and some better buffers of some form.

 

The J11 isn't quite as bad as I thought - I shall use the spare tender behind that and attach its new chassis for a test run when it arrives. Then a similar job to the D11 beckons. Overall I hope to get some nice looking models out of this, not the most accurate but suitable for my needs

 

Two projects and the stirling single to be getting on with, will add these to the workbench in due course.

[JohnBateson]

Interested to note the addition of an old BEC GCR tender. Can anybody tell me where I can get hold of the GAs for the 4000g tender - I have a few details I need to check before I build a few of my own.

John

[Forward!]

John- large scale 'proper' G/A drawings (i.e 10mm-1ft and larger) in 'Locomotives of the GCR - Volume 2 1912-British Railways', E.M. Johnson, Irwell Press 1992, ISBN 0871608279. Superb photographs in those volumes anyway, so worth a luck.

 

I know most of the drawings in that book were reproduced from those in the holdings of the Manchester Msueum Science and Industry, but don't know about the Tenders.

 

S.A.C. Martin- The tender currently behind your D11 ought to be pulled by the J11- the coal rails are the give away. Early Robinson locos carried them, but they were quickly plated in (from behind, leaving a 'corrugated' outside surface) and solid sheets started to be used soon after that.

 

Good luck with the restorations.

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Simon.

 

I found this as I was browsing the forum, so thought I'd look in, even though I have no advice on this particular subject. Those models, (to me) look like they would have been the dogs whatsits in their time but I'm sure after they've received the Simierski magic, they'll be top notch.

 

Am I right in thinking there's a D11 preserved, it looks like Butler Henderson I think? Might be showing my ignorance though?

 

I'll be watching with interest, but don't let the work on these hamper the K1!!!!

 

Cheers matey.

 

Sean.

[JohnBateson]

John- large scale 'proper' G/A drawings (i.e 10mm-1ft and larger) in 'Locomotives of the GCR - Volume 2 1912-British Railways', E.M. Johnson, Irwell Press 1992, ISBN 0871608279. Superb photographs in those volumes anyway, so worth a luck.

 

I know most of the drawings in that book were reproduced from those in the holdings of the Manchester Msueum Science and Industry, but don't know about the Tenders.

 

 

I found that Bill Hudson had a copy of this and it arrived the following day in exchange for money. Nice drawings of the 4000G tender at the back. Thnaks for the suggestion.

John

[Ravenser]

Hi Simon.

 

I found this as I was browsing the forum, so thought I'd look in, even though I have no advice on this particular subject. Those models, (to me) look like they would have been the dogs whatsits in their time but I'm sure after they've received the Simierski magic, they'll be top notch.

 

Am I right in thinking there's a D11 preserved, it looks like Butler Henderson I think? Might be showing my ignorance though?

 

I'll be watching with interest, but don't let the work on these hamper the K1!!!!

 

Cheers matey.

 

Sean.

 

 

Butler Henderson is the preserved D11/1 "Improved Director". There would be differences in the cab between this and the post Grouping batch ordered by Gresley for Scotland , as I believe these had cut down cabs and boiler fittings to meet the Scottish Area loading gauge. I have a feeling the cab may be different on the D10 "Original Director" as well

 

 

 

 

 

[Markeg]

Yes Ravenser, You are right.

 

Butler Henderson is preserved in the National Rail Museum (NRM). That may mean that Bachmann may have a go at producing one just as our friend is remodelling an old kit with a new rtr chassis. They seem to say that always happens. I hope that is what is announced in March by Bachmann for the next 18months production. If so it will be a long wait. I only hope so. As The D10 and a G5 044T are really the only other LNER locos I wish to get. But if they announce others, such as J15 or Q6-7....., I could go on, but that is the start of a new topic. So if it hasn't started I might start one.

 

The D11's for Scotland did indeed have reduced fittings and cab. The original Director's D10's did not have side cab windows as shown in picture of W B Gair.

 

I have finished waffling

 

Mark