Where are the Hornby models?

[The Stationmaster]

Does sound like they're working their way through a list of pre-prepared excuses and this month it is "packaging" again.

Still that's prototypical - how many train delays are claimed to be due to "operating difficulties", "congestion", "signal failure" and so on in lieu of whatever the real reason is.

Oh for a G.F.Fiennes - "the delay to this train is due to bad management".

Hardly - that reason applies to one particular product and SK was seemingly rather embarassed when he told me about it at Swindon.  Other delays and product coming in dribs & drabs was attributed to factories building up experience and sounds quite logical in view of their diversification of suppliers this year.

 

There appears to be a more general 'problem' (if that is the correct word?) in China of actually getting stuff into or through the production stage.  The appearance of various EP and 'decoration sample' models from both Hornby and Bachmann seems to perhaps indicate that the toolroom and design stage do not present too big a problem at present and the bottleneck has moved (certainly as far as Bachmann is concerned) from there to the production stage of the process.  We don't know why this is happening and can only guess at the reasons for it so we can hardly put it right by shouting the odds and I would be very surprised if SK, and others, aren't even more frustrated than folk posting on here.

[valeofyork]

Perhaps they have run out of other excuses. No idea what they are going to do with the Leaves on the line :jester:

 

Fortunately, help is at hand: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dapol-FEA-SKits-Network-Rail-RHTT-642045-46-suits-Hornby-31-67-Bachmann-66-57-/380726482733?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item58a511172d

[andyman7]

A three-tier range........Glad I'm not a model shop keeper having to stock all three variants and then having to dispose of the unsold at discount! It must be bad enough stocking all the known liveries beyond big four, pre 1956, post 1956, green era, blue era, grey, red band grey, roundel triple grey, mock-privatisation, full privatisation etc etc....

I probably didn't make myself clear enough but I certainly wasn't advocating different versions of the same model being stocked in each tier, just that the branding could help distinguish what type of model you were getting. As someone sad enough to own every Triang and Hornby catalogue from 1955 to now, one fairly obvious distinction between the range pre and post 2000 is just how many lines are listed. Ironically the current catalogue features around four times the number of lines that, say, the 1980 did, but in 1980 they were all things you could actually buy during the year whereas once you exclude sold-out and not-yet-produced lines the actual availability of items listed in 2013 is a much smaller proportion.

 

I actually think that in the current market there probably does need to be fewer lines with more reliable availability (this applies to Bachmann too!). BTW, the most consistently available items in the current Hornby range do appear to be the Railroad items.

[locoholic]

322 posts about the non-availability of what are, let's remember, toy trains for grown-ups! There is no right to a constant supply of Hornby models enshrined in Human Rights legislation. I find the current situation annoying - do you remember when you could save up for a model, and be reasonably confident that it would still be available? However, the people that should be stressed by the current situation are the Hornby shareholders, as there are obviously lots of us sitting around with ready cash burning holes in our wallets. I'm sure some of the institutional shareholders are applying pressure to get that situation sorted out - that's how capitalism works. And if Hornby don't get it sorted and there really is such a healthy market for model trains, then another company will spot the opportunity and move in. In the mean time we should be grateful that we don't have to sit all day in a factory making the models (in a country where Human Rights legislation is non-existent) and maybe run some of the trains that we are already lucky enough to own.

[robmcg]

Back to Hornbys problems then.

Think I will build a kit!

 

 

But, only the most gifted people can build kits which are as finely detailed as Hornby and Bachmann's best. Let alone the scratch-building gifted like the Tony Wrights and Larry Goddards of the world.

 

I think that to some degree explains the frustration at having reasonable supplies of very cheap very high quality for many years, it is frustrating that supply is now curtailed, and/or more expensive.

[scorpion]

Modelling is becoming increasingly distanced from "give me what I want on a plate", I have built kits, they are by no means perfect but they are mine and give me satisfaction, it doesn't matter that a factory produced model is better, or dearer or cheaper

 

this is supposed to be a hobby, a pastime, a relaxation, a pleasure

 

way to much stress in the world

[dibber25]

As I understand it, packaging durability is tested and passed or failed by the Chinese authorities, not by Hornby or Bachmann etc. It used to be called 'the Chinese drop test' and as I understand it, the model had to survive, undamaged, a drop-  in the packaging  - of around 6ft. Don't try this at home!

CHRIS LEIGH

[7013]

I wonder if Hornby shares will survive the drop test?

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if Hornby shares will survive the drop test?

An interesting and possibly unfortunate question.  This thread opened on 13 Septr when Hornby's share price stood at 82.5p, it dropped to 80.5 on the 16th and remained at that until falling to 77.5 on the 20th although it then steadily recovered to 82p on the 25th before falling again to 79.5 yesterday.  Clearly some element of 'hedging' going on in those movements but the current price is now the lowest since July when the shares bottomed at 78p before bouncing back quickly to 83p.

 

I have not attempted to correlate price movements against this thread but someone might like to.

[Vistisen]

Do they read this?  I am sure they do.

Why no response?  Well why put petrol on the fire?  As I alluded to on around page 6 if there is a choice between a continental model for the International range or a UK model then the profit margin on the continental model will currently win every time.

 

In the last few months the French market has enjoyed:

3 new versions of the X72500 - 2 coach railcar - sales price around £250

3 new versions of the 141 R 2-8-2 tender locomotive - sales price around £250

3 versions of the 030 TU - 0-6-0 tank - sales prices around £155

6 OCEM bogie coaches - rather old hat but still quite good models - in 2 era - sales price around £40 each

 

 

The thing about 'European' prices  ( by the way you chaps are a part of Europe  ) I live in Denmark home of Heljan. If I want to buy a Heljan class 17 from a certain emporium based in the hometown of the Beatles it costs £80, If I bought the same locomotive fra Heljan web site in Denmark cutting out the middleman,  it would cost £140 , so stop complaining! The simple reason Hornby choses to sell stuff in Europe is obvious, we won't pay for it in the UK.

[Dunsignalling]

 I find the current situation annoying - do you remember when you could save up for a model, and be reasonably confident that it would still be available? However, the people that should be stressed by the current situation are the Hornby shareholders, as there are obviously lots of us sitting around with ready cash burning holes in our wallets. I'm sure some of the institutional shareholders are applying pressure to get that situation sorted out - that's how capitalism works. And if Hornby don't get it sorted and there really is such a healthy market for model trains, then another company will spot the opportunity and move in. In the mean time we should be grateful that we don't have to sit all day in a factory making the models (in a country where Human Rights legislation is non-existent) and maybe run some of the trains that we are already lucky enough to own.

I still save up for models; I start when they are announced, and the cash is there by the time they arrive.

 

What I would have spent on overdue items is more than enough for a Heljan Garratt which would have otherwise bust my budget.

 

Thanks Hornby!

 

John

[Mel_H]

Anyone who thinks that manufacturing in Britain rather than China will add only £10 (less than 10% at today's prices) to the retail price of a model locomotive is kidding themselves.

 

Whether it is an extra £100 or more, i can't authoritatively say, but it's not an extra tenner.

 

There was some excellent data shared here on the price impact of moving from China to North America on the President of Rapido Trains blog. I'll look it up for you if I can find it. 

 

EDIT: Here it is. Please feel free to do the maths with some real hard data. Yes, Rapido's Budd "Park" Series dome-observation car is a high-end coach. For comparison, it is at least as well detailed as a lit-Hornby Pullman. Rapido's coaches retail for about US$85.00 which is pretty close to the £49.99 asking price for Hornby's latest Pullmans.  The President of Rapido estimated that his coach manufactured in North America would retail in the CAN$400 - 500 range.

 

 

Anyone who thinks that manufacturing in Britain rather than China will add only £10 (less than 10% at today's prices) to the retail price of a model locomotive is kidding themselves.

 

Whether it is an extra £100 or more, i can't authoritatively say, but it's not an extra tenner.

 

There was some excellent data shared here on the price impact of moving from China to North America on the President of Rapido Trains blog. I'll look it up for you if I can find it. 

 

EDIT: Here it is. Please feel free to do the maths with some real hard data. Yes, Rapido's Budd "Park" Series dome-observation car is a high-end coach. For comparison, it is at least as well detailed as a lit-Hornby Pullman. Rapido's coaches retail for about US$85.00 which is pretty close to the £49.99 asking price for Hornby's latest Pullmans.  The President of Rapido estimated that his coach manufactured in North America would retail in the CAN$400 - 500 range.

 

When 7013 has finished Hornby bashing (his favourite sport it seems) he should carefully read the Rapido blog - which has the advantage of being written by an owner/operator. Curious that 7013 enjoys Hornby bashing, but never mentions Dapol. Anyway, I thought the point of the hobby was modelling - i.e. make it yourself. I'll get my coat...

[Ian Hargrave]

When 7013 has finished Hornby bashing (his favourite sport it seems) he should carefully read the Rapido blog - which has the advantage of being written by an owner/operator. Curious that 7013 enjoys Hornby bashing, but never mentions Dapol. Anyway, I thought the point of the hobby was modelling - i.e. make it yourself. I'll get my coat...

. Let's stick to the point and keep personal criticisms out of this,please.People are entitled to express an opinion,surely?.Dapol has its own thread.....with equally robust criticism.There seems to be growing with some an impression that members have a particular axe to grind with Hornby just for the hell of it.

Yes,there is sharp criticism......and a great deal of it is well-merited.....not merely gratuitous,as some members would have us believe.

[7013]

I

When 7013 has finished Hornby bashing (his favourite sport it seems) he should carefully read the Rapido blog - which has the advantage of being written by an owner/operator. Curious that 7013 enjoys Hornby bashing, but never mentions Dapol. Anyway, I thought the point of the hobby was modelling - i.e. make it yourself. I'll get my coat...

I would like to state for the record that I am a lifelong supporter of Hornby, but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything that is written or what they are doing. As Ian Hargreaves points out there is a difference between robust criticism/ questioning and bashing. I am a keen modeller and if you took the trouble to look at some of my efforts that I have posted you would see this.

I have never resorted to personal insult and find your posting both ill informed and tasteless, so if you have picked up your coat I suggest you take your attitude to a site that is more appropriate to your kind of posting and leave others to discuss ( however robust) issues in a frank and fair environment .

[Mod5]

Please can we keep to topic rather than resort to unnecessary personal comments. 

 

Thank you

Even though this was only posted a few posts ago it would seem some need reminding.

[robmcg]

After all our comments, can anyone offer any idea as to exactly which new Hornby models are expected in the next two months?

 

I know we are hopeful about the P2 around the end of the year, and while I don't place too much weight on 'hoped-for' arrivals in shops, any clues as to drop tests and shipping dates would be most welcome.

 

As an aside, I detect a slight increase in asking prices for second-hand Hornby models if they are new or as-new.

 

As mentioned in other threads, teak Gresleys will definitely look the business behind a P2 2-8-2!

['CHARD]

Here's a field observation of Hornby supply and demand.

 

Train-pack R3094 featuring 70000 and Royal Train MkIIIs (the least common in real life and possibly one of the least popular liveries offered) seems to have been a slow mover since the Jubilee.

 

The bulled-up Brit from train-pack R3094 was offered split from the set at £99,95, which to me was perfectly acceptable on eBay with Free P&P, so I snapped one up.

 

Next time I looked, the same seller had reset the price to a still good £109.95 with several more sold; a week later, with even more sold, it's up to £119.95.

 

This is why - for my purposes - the Hornby aftermarket is the more relevant, as the overstocks find their own level.  I suppose it's fortunate I didn't 'need' Thompson suburban brakes with this approach.

[sandwich station]

I know we are hopeful about the P2 around the end of the year

 

Don't get to carried away, the Hornby website says 2014.

[Ian Hargrave]

Saw the P2 at Barrow Hill yesterday. An exquisite model. Development,I would say,at production stage.We shall see..... As an aside,a new development for me,at any rate was the sale of 'returns' on the Hornby stand....taking a cue from Bachmann's Warley scramble (no scramble yesterday,though). T9 LSWR 'specials' at £49.99, A4 'Commonwealth Of Australia at £79.99. Cash only,though..... Fortunately had enough to scrape together for a T9 ! Barrow Hill is situated in the N. Derbys 'sticks'....God knows where the nearest cashpoint is. A great day out folks ......'Mallard' resplendent in late Summer sunshine,her Garter Blue contrasting beautifully with the B.R. Blue of the in-steam and working 'Tornado' Wonderful to actually arrive by train....East Midlands 156 'shuttle' from Chesterfield. . The new Platform 3 at Chesterfield was clogged for a time by a Freightliner 66 -headed Lafarge cement freight headed for the Hope Valley line via the Bradway and Totley tunnels.....a tight path,given the now intense frequency of passenger traffic between Chesterfied and Sheffield. When a 'path' became available on the down main for the freight to cross over,nothing happened. Looked in cab....66 driver sound asleep. Rap on cab window woke the slumbering innocent......thus we clear the platform for the waiting 156 and complete the journey to Barrow Hill !

[Mike at C&M]

After all our comments, can anyone offer any idea as to exactly which new Hornby models are expected in the next two months?

Rob.

I have had an initial look at this, and the list is very long.

 

I have a visit from the Hornby rep. on Tuesday and one of the questions I have is will they deliver everything that is due, my feeling is not, but I want to hear what they have to say.

 

I shall report back after the visit.

[The Black Hat]

Its funny how many think that this Hornby bashing is deliberate. Its not. Put simply, Bachmann overall are favoured for the models they make, at the price they sell and which ones they choose to make. Hornby meanwhile do make some good models but overall the range isnt as good as that made by Bachmann.

 

Hornby at the moment isnt as good as Bachmann generally, and thus the bashing is there as we want them to be as good, if not better. If Bachmann were seen to be worse than Hornby then Bachmann would come in for some serious greif and Hornby would be seen to be fine. Its that simple....

[Gilwell Park]

Its funny how many think that this Hornby bashing is deliberate. Its not. Put simply, Bachmann overall are favoured for the models they make, at the price they sell and which ones they choose to make. Hornby meanwhile do make some good models but overall the range isnt as good as that made by Bachmann.

 

Hornby at the moment isnt as good as Bachmann generally, and thus the bashing is there as we want them to be as good, if not better. If Bachmann were seen to be worse than Hornby then Bachmann would come in for some serious greif and Hornby would be seen to be fine. Its that simple....

Hi.  It all depends what you model.  I am sure that the Bachmann GC O4, D11, J11 are, or will be great models.  However for the GE section they are useless, whereas the B1, B17, O1, L1 are exactly what is required.  Likewise for the SR/SW section the C, E4, H2 are no good but a T9, M7, N15 are ideal. When it comes to Standards however Bachmann produce their 73xxx, 76xxx, 80xxx, 82xxx which are really useful. It's that simple.

 

Roger. 

['CHARD]

And for those of us who run trains with wagons in them?

[Gilwell Park]

And for those of us who run trains with wagons in them?

Chard.  Yes,  agree with you there.  Roger.

[stewartingram]

I'm sorry but I've got to say this, having had it in my mind for months.

 

I - and this is me talking, not representing anyone else but myself - do NOT compare Hornby models with Bachmann or any other maker. Nor do I compare one Hornby model with another. It is not, with very very few exceptions , possible to do so for a number of reasons.

When a model is put on sale from a manufacturer, it is a model of its time. If it was produced a year earlier or later, the manufacture of it would be subject to different restraints; costs, market forces, latest design fads, you name it. Take the Bachmann 08 - first release had different pickups to the later ones, they changed their ideas.

So how can you compare a whole range from Hornby with the whole range from Bachmann? Impossible. All designed and made at different times. Once in a while they do go head to head, the 75000 being an example, same class of loco at just about the same time. I don't think there was an overall winner there, each one had its faults and merits, it is down to personal choice. Pricewise, I think the Hornby has been the higher one, but that is probably down to R&D costs being absorbed in a much shorter run (how many times have I said that?). The Bachmann version seems to reappear in more batches than the Hornby one, doesn't make it more successful though as from the manufacturer's point of view, it is their profit (by selling to the retailer) that counts.

My modelling consists of all types from RTR to scratch. As far as I am concerned the RTR is a piece of plastic, ready formed into a model, saving me a lot of work. It usually gets some detailing from me though. So if Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan announce something, and it fits my criteria, I'll buy it. Gives me chance to produce something they don't. They announce it, I'll save up for it. When it eventually appears, I pay for it. If it is delayed, not the end of the world. I do in some ways regret the old days when they would announce a couple of locos around the end of the year, for production next year, and knowing that when they appeared, they would be available for ever (well, almost).But those days are gone, we are NOT going to get them back, it has to be short batch runs now, and prices have risen to cover that (R&D again...also not keeping warehouses full of stock waiting to be sold, which means cash tied up in shelf stock). Because we WANT many new items, this is one of the consequences. Also being at the mercy of a sub-contractor to supply (and design) doesn't help. Maybe Hornby & others could set up there own factory in China to get better control? Probably not, apart from the complications of correct skilled staff, including the designers, there are probably countless Chinese regulations deterring that in order to protect the Chinese interests.

So to sum up, I'm not a Hornby basher, just a realist. The company is NOT the company that introduced things like Evening Star to the market in the 70's or whenever, it is a modern replacement, struggling to survive in todays economy. I'm grateful to them for producing anything I want, I can accept there are mistakes made but can guess at some of the decisions made that culminated in those errors though

Incidentally, When Evening Star (9F 2-10-0) was initially designed, the one-piece (no fiddly details added etc) loco body, no chassis, no tender, was widely commented on as costing £100k even then. Imagine what that cost would be today, without 'design clever' on a similar body designed in the uk?

Food for thought?

 

Stewart