Where are the Hornby models?

[tender]

 

As the SR Unconverted Open Third has turned up unexpectedly, someone may like to try to work out what anticipated early October item didn't make it into that container....... It might not be British outline , or even model railways , of course

I guess that the SR Unconverted Open Thirds were part of an advanced shipment with the rest to follow nearer their expected date of Jan 2014. At least I hope so, judging by the rate they disappeared of the shelves (about 2hours before out of stock) or there will be a lot of unhappy customers. (Not me as it arrived today).

 

Ray.

[robmcg]

I'm so so tempted to buy some of the better models which have arrived this week!  Please send money.

[The Stationmaster]

17 pages of comment since 17/09. Most of it sheer supposition. I am guilty of adding to it!   Number of manufacturers, Volume of models , drop tests etc. But the critical point of my posting is that these 17 pages are a result of complete non communication from Hornby. Left in a vacuum people come of with their own theories / scenarios.

 

How about a monthly update along the lines of "Just arrived at Margate R4522A Gresley Suburban Brake Third, R4537 SR Unconverted Open Third .  The latest arrival dates for the following are............. etc etc"  A bit of proactive communication might just get a few of us back on board!

Interesting - the number of manufacturers I quoted (and I think it was only me who quoted it) was taken from a Hornby briefing presentation which found its way onto the internet until quickly taken down; any figures for the number of models manufactured which I have quoted have been taken from published sources originating with Hornby - some people might not bother to check facts, I try to.

 

And yes, umpteen pages back in this thread I suggested a monthly Newsletter, as have several other people because you are absolutely right - there is currently poor communication from Hornby although if you speak to him at shows Simon Kohler does seem to try to give sensible answers - that is where the information about the drop test came from so that isn't 'supposition' either (as I said when I posted it)..

 

 

 

I think that is in excess of 200 000 combinations - or put another way theoretically no 2 deliveries will be the same.  It is no wonder that Hornby do not know what is going to arrive in the detail we would like to think is possible.

 

Oh and I used to spend millions on imports and it never got any better than this - and my boss could never understand why either.

 

Interesting post - but how come Kernow have, and DJ Models promise to, give the name of the ship on which their consignment is loaded?  Are they just guessing or do they have place proper arrangements for tracking what is being despatched to them?  I appreciate it is a complicated business involving forwarding agents and possibly groupage etc but surely packages still have shipping marks and numbers (even if in Chinese script) and equally surely if someone is paying good money for whatever it happens to be coming they want to keep track of their goods.  Bachmann seem to be able to give us a pretty good idea - although it too isn't always accurate - and at least they try to keep their 'within 60 days' list current.  It must be relatively simple for the factory to tell Hornby what they've made and put into the shipping system so why couldn't Hornby say something much simpler like Bachmann?

 

As Stewart has said it's all about patience and I don't argue with that one bit, I've waited many years for some things so a few months hardly matters.  But it all comes back to one thing - communication, clear, reliable, information flow to retailers and customers but particularly to retailers who are trying to keep their finances on an even keel

[Ravenser]

 

 

 

Interesting post - but how come Kernow have, and DJ Models promise to, give the name of the ship on which their consignment is loaded?  Are they just guessing or do they have place proper arrangements for tracking what is being despatched to them?  I appreciate it is a complicated business involving forwarding agents and possibly groupage etc but surely packages still have shipping marks and numbers (even if in Chinese script) and equally surely if someone is paying good money for whatever it happens to be coming they want to keep track of their goods.  

 

 

 

Kernow have only one or maybe two items "live" at any time. If a Chinese supplier is sending them a shipment there can be little doubt what it actually is

[robmcg]

Well, Kernows had the Gresley non-vestibule Brake 3rd in BR red today and I bought one, I was wondering if I could realistically run it with Thompson stock of similar type, having the 3rd and composite, or should I wait for the BR Thompson Brake 3rd?  I am aware that these carriages often ran in sets, so would be interested in any knowledge of 'singles' and mixed sets. 

 

Rob

[Sasquatch]

Well, Kernows had the Gresley non-vestibule Brake 3rd in BR red today and I bought one, I was wondering if I could realistically run it with Thompson stock of similar type, having the 3rd and composite, or should I wait for the BR Thompson Brake 3rd?  I am aware that these carriages often ran in sets, so would be interested in any knowledge of 'singles' and mixed sets. 

 

Rob

Go for it, behind a class 15, 16 or 31 or something! 

[Ian Hargrave]

Well, Kernows had the Gresley non-vestibule Brake 3rd in BR red today and I bought one, I was wondering if I could realistically run it with Thompson stock of similar type, having the 3rd and composite, or should I wait for the BR Thompson Brake 3rd?  I am aware that these carriages often ran in sets, so would be interested in any knowledge of 'singles' and mixed sets. 

 

Rob

 

Well, Kernows had the Gresley non-vestibule Brake 3rd in BR red today and I bought one, I was wondering if I could realistically run it with Thompson stock of similar type, having the 3rd and composite, or should I wait for the BR Thompson Brake 3rd?  I am aware that these carriages often ran in sets, so would be interested in any knowledge of 'singles' and mixed sets. 

 

Rob

For 'kosher' authenticity,try Hornby L1 ,Bachmann Ivatt 4MT,'Director'.....e.g. Nottingham Victoria-Derby Friargate local. Sorry,our transatlantic friend,not really....we're talking here of the late 1950's.

[coachmann]

Well, Kernows had the Gresley non-vestibule Brake 3rd in BR red today and I bought one, I was wondering if I could realistically run it with Thompson stock of similar type, having the 3rd and composite, or should I wait for the BR Thompson Brake 3rd?  I am aware that these carriages often ran in sets, so would be interested in any knowledge of 'singles' and mixed sets. 

 

Rob

They may well have run in sets in certain well defined areas, but coaches were usually built on a rolling programme of replaceing like with like.  Like with like means an all-third to replace an all-third. So there would be nothing incorrect about running a train consisting of Gresley and Thompson non-corridor stock. Indeed, like-for-like had been going on since railways began and so if you were modelling a line on the old Great Central, your non-corridor train could consist of the products from the GCR, Gresley and Thompson....not to mention a BR Mk.I or even a NER coach drafted into the area. The Foxline album on the Hayfield Branch shows all this only to well.

 

Edit: I forgot to say this applied up to DMU-isation circa 1955-9. Most of the remaining pre-group coaches were withdrawn during this period..

[The Stationmaster]

Kernow have only one or maybe two items "live" at any time. If a Chinese supplier is sending them a shipment there can be little doubt what it actually is

Which goes back to my point about Hornby (or Bachmann) knowing what is being despatched from the factory and then putting an 'expected in x days' against it based on their usual experience with transit times.  Surely - as someone has already pointed out - if the book production slots they want to know if their contract has been honoured and when it has been honoured at what should, in reality, be the simplest part to get firm information on from the entire design/development/manufacture/pack. 

[Mike Bellamy]

Have a look at MRE where Pat Hammond has listed the latest releases about 3/4 down this page

http://www.mremag.com/news/bulletin.asp

 

Interesting to see the comments about some models still coming from Sanda Kan and others that were former SK models now being re-released from elsewhere

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

Interesting post - but how come Kernow have, and DJ Models promise to, give the name of the ship on which their consignment is loaded?  Are they just guessing or do they have place proper arrangements for tracking what is being despatched to them?  I appreciate it is a complicated business involving forwarding agents and possibly groupage etc but surely packages still have shipping marks and numbers (even if in Chinese script) and equally surely if someone is paying good money for whatever it happens to be coming they want to keep track of their goods.  Bachmann seem to be able to give us a pretty good idea - although it too isn't always accurate - and at least they try to keep their 'within 60 days' list current.  It must be relatively simple for the factory to tell Hornby what they've made and put into the shipping system so why couldn't Hornby say something much simpler like Bachmann?

 

 

 

 

I cannot give you chapter and verse on all of the points, but regarding the small producers, I think you already have the answer.  If you are only expecting 3 items then it is much easier to get information which you can fairly accurately extrapolate.

 

Bachmann have the advantage of (I assume) having everything made by their owners - Kader.  So one producer (divide 200 000 by 6) possibly/probably coordinating everything centrally (divide by 15 possibly or at least reducing to maybe 2 or 3 - and also avoiding LCL shipments) and maybe using a single shipping line.  (They may just be big enough to make this a viable proposition).  Kader are also essentially both shipper and receiver which also simplifies the processes and may well improve the communication flows.

 

I think you can see that the complexity for Bachmann is significantly less, and the ability to track and control that much higher. 

 

In all of this remember that we concentrate on the new releases, but Bachmann and Hornby also have a lot of repeat mundane items produced and shipped as well - buildings, track, electronics etc - which again smaller importers do not have to contend with.

 

One other point to consider is that in all of this, the party that is in most control of the details of the shipment is the freight forwarder.  This is where we go back to those conditions of sale.  If CIF, the freight forwarder is contracted by the shipper and has no allegiance to the customer.  He may be asked by the shipper to provide information for the customer, but whether he does this or not is another matter (again personal experience).  And if he is poor at doing this, what is Hornby supposed to do?  Complain to his supplier - of course - and with what redress when there is no improvement?  Withdrawal of business?  So cutting off one of the remaining independent supply options?  Hornby are not in a strong position. 

 

They could of course change the sales terms so that they take control of the shipping process, but do they have the expertise to do this?  And it would almost certainly mean a permanent presence in China - which might have significant tax implications.   And frankly, should a toy manufacturer become an expert in exporting, shipping and importing?  All over the world and in all sorts of industries companies have walked away from that and let third parties become the experts in this.

[Ian Hargrave]

Andy,you obviously know what you are talking about to judge from your postings recently. A simple question for you ( if there is such a thing in these circumstances )....what would your strategy be for Hornby to improve upon existing chains of manufacture,supply,shipping and communication ?

[Sasquatch]

For 'kosher' authenticity,try Hornby L1 ,Bachmann Ivatt 4MT,'Director'.....e.g. Nottingham Victoria-Derby Friargate local. Sorry,our transatlantic friend,not really....we're talking here of the late 1950's.

I have a picture somewhere of either a class 15 or 16 with an empty mixed set f ex LNER stock and not all the same colour! (This places the train in the sixties). They also would look great behind D5579 in golden ochre. I agree about the locos you mentioned and would like to point out that for authenticity a N7, N1, G5, A5 and J15 even, would be more appropriate none of which are produced by Hornby.

It a classic case of Hornby not marketing too well, lovely coaches but not much choice in the motive power dept!   They haven't even done a run of the old Airfix N2 or a revamped D49!! 

[Andy Hayter]

Andy,you obviously know what you are talking about to judge from your postings recently. A simple question for you ( if there is such a thing in these circumstances )....what would your strategy be for Hornby to improve upon existing chains of manufacture,supply,shipping and communication ?

 

Ian

Well that puts me on the spot.

 

Let me start off by saying that I do not believe there is some magic pill that will overnight solve the problems.  But if it were me in charge (and I  now put on a flack jacket and tin hat):

1.  I would immediately manage customer expectations.  I would cease promising 1st quarter, 2nd quarter etc. models.  I would take the Bachmann stance and simply say, these are the models we plan in the near future, when we have a reliable delivery date we will let you know.  And here is the first problem - Hornby have never done it that way.  They have always had 1st quarter, 2nd quarter etc. releases.  But with the current production uncertainties, I would break the tradition - and be cursed by every Hornby employee from the COE to the toilet cleaner - not to mention Hornby customers who "expect" and look forward to their quarterly offerings.  Woe betide you if a Q1 offering is not there on April Fools day.  So stop promising what you cannot guarantee to deliver.

2.  The supply chain is complex and the only way to improve is to simplify it.  The easiest way to simplify is to reduce the number of suppliers but the flaw in that strategy should be obvious to all.  It should remain however a longer term expectation.

3.  Get the existing suppliers to work in cooperation for dispatch and shipping.  Larger deliveries and fewer LCL (I don't know if Hornby have much LCL, but if they do the target should be to eliminate it.  Now that is easy to write down, but it is a lot harder getting them to do it without offending them or making them feel that you think they have all been doing it wrong ( maintaining face as has been said is essential when working with Far East companies).  If you could standardise on one good freight forwarder - and there are a few multinational ones that are good - you could then work with the manufacturers to ensure you get the detail you need when you need it.

4.  Getting faith with your suppliers - another thing about loosing face, is that when there is a production problem, they won't tell you (in the hope that they can fix it) until it is far too late.

[Andy Hayter]

Sorry Ian,

I was forced to shut down quickly as a thunderstorm passed overhead (one of the joys of living in France!!), and did not complete the post.

 

so :

4.  Getting faith with your suppliers - another thing about loosing face, is that when there is a production problem, they won't tell you (in the hope that they can fix it) until it is far too late.  This really does demand building up high levels of trust - not so easy if they know your strategy is to reduce suppliers.

 

I am sure there is nothing here that Hornby have not thought about or are not doing - although I suspect that suggesting  the first point of stopping the quarterly releases would be considered as a "career limiting move" by many within the company, but something has to change and there are too many uncontrollable factors in the other areas to give quick results.

[Ian Hargrave]

Many thanks,Andy.That's a realistic way forward.Getting rid of the unrealistic expectation policy would be a healthy first step.A culture change,it would seem.Good to know your cyberspace connection survived the elements. Regards Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

One thing you didn't mention Andy - which has not served their reputation well - is their seeming failure to honour pre-orders from retailers and to impose product rationing without even admitting they are doing it or 'losing' the paperwork/order records which would prove they've done it.  While this is very probably a direct consequence of their erratic supply situation it hasn't done their reputation any good and it has cost retailers sales.

 

You mentioned 'faith' with their suppliers, I think what is perhaps even more important at the moment is something I mentioned a long time ago on here (generally, not just in relation to Hornby) and that is the question of trust with retailers and end customers.  If a retailer pre-orders X number of whatever he should expect to get it and if he is rationed he should be entitled to know that is happening, why it is happening, and that exactly the same treatment/percentage of rationing is being extended to all outlets.

[Andy Hayter]

I cannot disagree with that.  I was looking (based on Ian's question) at the production, supply chain and communication bit of the problem, but I agree they have (perhaps inadvertently) created problems at the sharp end of Sales as well.

Of all of the problems, that is probably the easiest to solve, since that at least is within their gift to change.

[robmcg]

Thankyou all for the replies to my question abut mixing Thompsons with Gresleys, especially Coachmann and reference to the ex-GC..

 

I find myself wondering if Hornby will always in future be supplying in dribs and drabs, it makes purchasing much more 'do it now or you will miss out'.

 

The Thomspon teaks all being available at more than one retailer, and expensive, but oh so finely detailed! Should I? Should I?

 

My supply of BR red Gresleys and a couple of Thomspons is now good, but how long after nationalisation were teak-finish carriages seen, and how weathered were they?

 

edit; or should I buy them simply because they LOOK SUPERB...

 

Rob

[Sasquatch]

One thing to note about teak is that paint won't stay on it very long.

I have asked the same question. At a show in Brighton many years ago when I was a lad there was a layout I stood at observing and chatting with the opperators who were very informative. Their layout was set in the fiftys but most of the gresley stock remained in a striking teak. It was pointed out that not everything received a repaint in 1948 and the other chap butted in to say that a lot of stock never received paint at all due to my point above.

Their finish involved dry brushed Humbrol LNER teak #143 and a wash of Humbrol #9 gloss tan. (Both of which are no longer produced, the Tan now being a much darker shade).  A finish I used on my stock for years.

Here's a pic of D5579 with Gresley suburban coaches in the background http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history.htm It is not clear if that is teak or old crimson paint.

Interesting subject. I will start a new thread. Show us your teak! 

 

Regards Shaun. Your friendly transatlantic chap/guy.

 

Edit: new topic is here

[coachmann]

Thompson corridor third  E1499E lasted in teak until 1957. A Gresley corridor brake third also lasted to around this time in teak. Many ex-LNER coaches were still in teak in 1953-4, as I saw then on the Woodhead route in Newton,Hyde. Regarding non-corridor LNER coaches, those that received teak finish in early 1949 before carmine red became the standard livery would generally run about 4 - 5 years before needing a repaint. Whether the new Thompsons were given carmine red before they really needed a repaint, I don't know.

 

Pre-grouping coaches were another matter. We know the GCR matchboard non-corridor coaches got carmine red eventually, although not those earmarked for early withdrawal. The earlier GCR non-corridor stock with low eliptical or clerestory roofs remained in teak until withdrawal. I discussed the North Eastern non-corridors with John Fozard after he produced several kits and he said he doubted any got BR colours. Some ex GER corridor coaches got plain carmine red in place 'teak brown'. I have come across colour photos of ex LNWR non-corridor coaches in carmine red but very few ex LNWR corridor cocahces got BR livery. John found a monochrome photo of a LNWR Toplight corridor coach in blood & custard on the Eastern Region and it looked weard. It made me wonder if it was actuallly a green & cream Camping coach in transit!

 

 

 

Edit : In answering this question I have wandered off topic....apologies.

[The Stationmaster]

They've got something right at last - well thus far that is.  I heard today that two locos I ordered early in January 2012 have now arrived at the retailer and are ready for me to collect = result.  What however is galling, and maybe even worrying(?), about this is that a friend of mine got his example of one of them (2-8-2T 7229) months ago while I got my first example of the other, a 2-8-0T, from a different retailer months ago (yes, I am buying two).  

 

This illustrates what I mean about 'trust'  I have been prepared to wait for these locos because I placed a pre-order with a retailer I regard as one of my 'local' modelshops - he supports me with stuff others don't stock, I support him by not buying by post from somewhere in north west England.  But the cash flow he had planned for December last will - as far as my order is concerned - now happen this month.

 

Incidentally it is rumoured that Hornby are now putting out to retailers stock which came from Modelzone and describing it as 'new' even though the boxes have been damaged.  Reportedly they had nearly £6 million's worth of stock (presumably including Scalextric?) with Modelzone so I wonder if they aren't being too careful about how they recirculate it?

[coachmann]

 

Incidentally it is rumoured that Hornby are now putting out to retailers stock which came from Modelzone and describing it as 'new' even though the boxes have been damaged.  Reportedly they had nearly £6 million's worth of stock (presumably including Scalextric?) with Modelzone so I wonder if they aren't being too careful about how they recirculate it?

 

Maybe someone considers 'we' are so despairate to buy during this Hornby famine that we wont notice it's bankrupt stock.

[phil gollin]

.

 

One thing that surprises me is that only the Southern Railway version of the "unconverted" 3rd turned up.  To me at least it would seem strange that the BR Southern Region wasn't produced at the same time.

 

Oh the mysteries of sub-contracted work.

 

.

[Ian Hargrave]

Maybe someone considers 'we' are so despairate to buy during this Hornby famine that we wont notice it's bankrupt stock.

Sorry to be pedantic,Larry.....but didn't I read somewhere on this forum that Hornby actually OWN the late-lamented MZ stock.Thus,we have reclaimed and redistributed goodies.Stuff we wouldn't.....had not MZ gone 'belly-up'......have seen for a couple of months....as in the long-griping 2 BIL saga and the 42/52 drip-feed.They are now 'cascading'......lovely misuse of the English language this....into the market place.Suddenly,Pharaoh's lean years are over......for the moment....and things are turning up unannounced in unlikely places.....or so it seems.Roll up roll up,come and get yer lovely treats folks.

In all of this....one sobering reflection.The stock has not disappeared into liquidation and is out there,unscathed,for us to buy. It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good.