Where are the Hornby models?

[Ian Hargrave]

Yes....I recently sliced through the wiring of a malachite Schools connecting pin (just love that livery)  Your timely postings are a rallying cry for Hornby,Rob......shows us what they can do.

[sandwich station]

Image600ab_r800.jpg

 

Nicely weathered A3 rob, thanks for showing it

['CHARD]

What are the problems with the Brit and Clan, then?  Only they haven't been mentioned....

[Dunsignalling]

High water mark ? Reached December last with O1 andB17......and before that with B1in Dec.2012.

Long before that with the Britannias, King Arthurs and rebuilt West Countries. IMHO

[Ian Hargrave]

Long before that with the Britannias, King Arthurs and rebuilt West Countries. IMHO

High water-mark refers to the LAST incoming models......all of the abovementioned  are,of course,excellent models.

['CHARD]

Ahhhh, that's better.  Suitably assuaged, I think I'll go shopping for my fifth of the breed 

 

(from one modeller whose steam conversion owes as much to Hornby and Bachmann as it does the prototype)

[andyman7]

With next year being 2014 it will be fifty years since the end of the Hornby Dublo range. Maybe we should buy what is currently available from Hornby today just in case there is another radical step change around the corner. The Hornby brand should go on for many more years but it could be that the high standard set by models like the retooled Castles will be a thing of the past and we will go back ten years with regard to detail.

 

2245_AL1_loco.jpg

 

The 42xx tanks and other promised models in the 2013 catalogue could become the equivalent of the Hornby Dublo 2245 electric loco or the Hornby Dublo 4654 track cleaning wagon.

 

4654_track_cleaning_wagon.jpg

Whatever the future holds, there are some remarkable bargains out there now. There is a bit of a glut of unsold Hawksworths meaning that they can be obtained for £25 or less depending on the version - this is a super detailed coach that 20 years ago would have been the preserve of master kit builders, notwithstanding any minor niggles about printed curtains etc. I have a feeling that in 10 years when this back stock has long been cleared, good examples will fetch a tidy price s/h. It's all about perceived value - because there are quite a lot of bargain superdetail coaches around, the 'list' price of £40 or whatever is seen as excessive

 

As 6959 so ably illustrates, when the stuff is gone from sale the market can quickly re-evaluate. The HD E3002 model, crude as it was, could be bought at bargain prices in the mid 60s as stock was cleared - there is a painfully ironic article in a 1967 issue of Model Railway Constructor demonstrating how it can be converted into an equally crude class 73. Nowadays, you'd be hard pressed to find one for under 400 notes..... 

 

Of course the first time someone manages to sell a Hawksworth coach for £50 on ebay there will be cries of 'profiteer!' and outraged posts that the 'true' value is £25 because that's what they were on sale for in the shops 

[The Stationmaster]

(Lovely pictures there by the way.)

 

If you want something from Hornby do buy it now.

 

One thing is certain, the legacy of Frank Hornby will live on in the Hornby brand, no matter who owns it. That property still remains one of Hornby PLC's greatest assets.

 

It's too soon for long-range prognosticating about design clever. It continues to be my opinion that 'design clever' was an artifact of Hornby having to change factories to a manufacturing plant that did not have the same equipment, skills and experience in building models of the quality of the retooled Thompson L1.

 

While the Castle tooling was excellent the execution was poor. There were problems with the tools breaking and lots of quality control issues. It's not their high-water mark, I think that honour goes to the Thompson L1.

 

Assuming Hornby re-establishes manufacturing excellence with their new suppliers, I hope this will eventually translate into a a move away from 'design clever' and a return to highly detailed models. We should also expect to pay a bit more for this level of detail.

 

We are paying more anyway (as is also evident in Bachmann prices). The magic £100 barrier is well and truly shattered.

I do agree with the 'buy now' point but that takes some of us back to where the thread started!  I am still waiting for additions to my GW 8-coupled tank engine fleet - notwithstanding that all of them are pre-ordered with two normally very reliable retailers; they can't sell to me if Hornby haven't met their orders (although arrival in dribs & drabs does suit my cashflow so it isn't all bad news).  But the other thing is the emergence of what seem to be stock/MZ clear-outs at prices which are unlikely to be seen again and buying them well not only save money for the purchasers but will keep money flowing into the retailers and back to Hornby which is no bad thing when new stuff is only arriving in fits and starts (if it's arriving at all).

 

I certainly don't think we're looking at the immediate death of Hornby Group but clearly an awful lot is going to depend on what they manage in the pre-Christmas 'general' market and more particularly in the upcoming late autumn/winter model railway show period because the latter is where relatively rapid and large sales can be achieved as the shows pull in potential buyers.  However in my view if they can't meet those markets they are going to have to pull a lot of rabbits out of various hats fairly early next year or they could be heading for serious problems in money terms as well as the current impact on their reputation.  And I'm sorry but - if the rumours are true - talk laying their troubles at someone else's door does them no credit at all, management of supply chains and product quality is down to them and their contracts, not to anyone else.

 

Personally I think that if they are to survive in the longer term they will have to run two genuinely distinct ranges - Railroad/'design clever' for the mass market and models with a higher level of detail for the more discerning and higher spending market although they will need to better understand how that market works (and that it is unlikely to accept a few separate bits stuck onto what are basically design clever items with an inflated price tag).  The genie is well and truly out of the 'higher level of detail' bottle and Hornby need to understand that money spent on a Kernow Well Tank or a Hattons Garratt is money that can no longer be spent with them.  Numerous models from Hornby in the recent past show they can succeed in this market area in the technical aspects - what they need to understand is how it works commercially and that it is not like their past retail model.

[coachmann]

It is a shame when very good models such as the Hawksworth carriages have to be discounted as they are at the mo. Was it over-production or just coaches in the wrong order?  A spot of joined up thinking would have led Hornby to produce 1920s Collett 57 footers to cover the GWR 1923-63 market first before adding Hawksworth to the range. The middle ground covering 1930s stock could then have followed at leasure. 

 

Although I am a keen coach builder, I won't turn my nose up to good plastic RTR coaches. But Hornby's 'keep 'em hungry policy'(?) has so far denied me a few Thompson non-corridors too.  

[The Stationmaster]

It is a shame when very good models such as the Hawksworth carriages have to be discounted as they are at the mo. Was it over-production or just coaches in the wrong order?  A spot of joined up thinking would have led Hornby to produce 1920s Collett 57 footers to cover the GWR 1923-63 market first before adding Hawksworth to the range. The middle ground covering 1930s stock could then have followed at leasure. 

 

Although I am a keen coach builder, I won't turn my nose up to good plastic RTR coaches. But Hornby's 'keep 'em hungry policy'(?) has so far denied me a few Thompson non-corridors too.  

I think they misunderstood the market Larry.  Like no doubt many other folk I 'went mad' when the coaches first appeared and stocked up with them - partly because they were available, obviously because they suited my modelling interest, and partly because I  didn't know how long they would hang around on the shelves.  So having bought 'quite a lot' of them when they reappeared my need was not so great and my wallet was considerably lighter as a result of the first buying spree.  I bought some but only selectively going for the most common types because I already had enough brake vehicles etc.  No doubt others did the same as me and were similarly disposed towards the second lot?

 

Meanwhile what did Hornby do - well that would be interesting to know but does what's happening now tell the story of 'we've had a great success so we'll make some more - a whole lot more'.  And perhaps the problem lies in the 'whole lot more' area?  So they learnt their lesson with the Thompsons - and went the other way perhaps?

[Legend]

Smyths don't stock Hornby, but they do have inexpensive trains ets. And that's the point Hornby simply too expensive for the play value.

 

Going back to the point where are Hornby, it's becoming obvious at exhibitions that the box shifters still have ample stocks of Bachmann but are running low on Hornby, with only older stock remaining. It might be that prices start to increase but on the other hand if the models left are those that nobody wanted then why would you want them now. Prices might actually have to come down to shift them. Interestingly Cheltenham Model Centre still had 2-8-0 tanks and NRM 2 Bil at Ayr on Saturday

[Dunsignalling]

 

Of course the first time someone manages to sell a Hawksworth coach for £50 on ebay there will be cries of 'profiteer!' and outraged posts that the 'true' value is £25 because that's what they were on sale for in the shops 

The 'true value' of any item is what someone is willing to pay at the time it is offered for sale.

 

Anyone who fails to get what they need at the prices currently on offer will have only himself to blame if he has to pay through the nose later.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

High water-mark refers to the LAST incoming models......all of the abovementioned  are,of course,excellent models.

And the O1 and B17 are of a similar, but not higher, standard. Which is the point I was making.

 

As for the L.1; Nice to look at but I haven't yet seen one that will stay on the track reliably without modification. 

 

John  

[Ian Hargrave]

And the O1 and B17 are of a similar, but not higher, standard. Which is the point I was making.

 

As for the L.1; Nice to look at but I haven't yet seen one that will stay on the track reliably without modification. 

 

John  

Let me take this one stage further. Since the advent of the B1 in Dec 2012,new steam models are now permanently coupled,which is why i would rate them a notch better than previous releases.This avoids the not inconsiderable menace of the tender connection plug.This upgrade has been extended to include the sound version  of the Bulleid rebuild 34040, 'Crewkerne',at least.In addtion the O1 is equipped with a flywheel and gives an astonishingly good performance,even though it has a 3-pole motor,as opposed to Hornby's usual 5-pole version. My L1 has never experienced any track-related problems whatsoever.It has been weathered but otherwise remains as it came from the factory. Ian.

[7013]

Just one point Ian the O1 has a 5 pole motor, there was quite a bit of debate about it until Hornby confirmed it was a 5 pole motor. When the B1, O 1 and B17 came out we were in a purple patch with Hornby. We could not have predicted at that time that subsequent releases ( steam locos) would take a nose dive in quality but not price. The 2-8-2T looks pretty good as a stand alone model. Put it alongside the O1 and you begin to see the differences in the fine detail and overall finish.

[robmcg]

What are the problems with the Brit and Clan, then?  Only they haven't been mentioned....

 

GordonBennett! They are the best of the lot!  I'm only 62 and already my mind is failing!

 

here is another working pic., yes, incorrect cutouts because of aftermarket re-name. Hornby production models are all correct in this area. Superb model with light weathering UK (TMC) weathering plus a little photo-editing, the DoG will be as good I hope.

 

 

 

[jonathan452]

I think all models with 4-pin/plug connectors will be less desirable in the future than others.

 

Agree. PIty I wasn't aware of these when I bought a super detailed version Mallard a year or two back from Modelzone Holborn for £112 to avoid the 2012 price rises, some regrets now. Although with the current situation I perhapes better hang on-to it.

 

but on the other hand if the models left are those that nobody wanted then why would you want them now. Prices might actually have to come down to shift them.

Railroad Warship.

 

EDIT

It does look as if one of the East Coast MK4's has now arrived

http://www.ehattons.com/51162/Hornby_R4541_Mk4_Standard_Open_East_Coast__/StockDetail.aspx

As in the extra coaches to go with the Flying Scotsman Train Pack/Model Rail Limited Edition Class 91.

[Removed a/c]

and a year later you can buy the loco that pulls them  

[robmcg]

Having looked at my photo of re-named Britannia 'Lightning' I had to fix the late BR handholds on the deflectors which on this engine were actually the square type I think. 

 

Perhaps the lubricator arm on the valve gear is wrong being the 'long' type, or the ejector piping behind the smoke deflectors is not lowered, I will have to check these.

 

Had to change the deflectors anyway, and one thing led to another..  and the relevance to the topic is, to me, whether Hornby will retain this standard of modelling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

Let me take this one stage further. Since the advent of the B1 in Dec 2012,new steam models are now permanently coupled,which is why i would rate them a notch better than previous releases.This avoids the not inconsiderable menace of the tender connection plug.This upgrade has been extended to include the sound version of the Bulleid rebuild 34040, 'Crewkerne',at least.In addtion the O1 is equipped with a flywheel and gives an astonishingly good performance,even though it has a 3-pole motor,as opposed to Hornby's usual 5-pole version. My L1 has never experienced any track-related problems whatsoever.It has been weathered but otherwise remains as it came from the factory. Ian.

Permanent coupling is a matter of personal preference and I wouldn't want it to be too permanent!.

I will invert my mate's B17 to investigate on my next visit.

 

I find servicing (or any other operation) much easier if I can work on the loco and tender separately (though Hornby's earlier practice of packaging them 'uncoupled' has been a great source of irritation). Bachmann seem to have achieved a happy medium with their 4F (i.e. it separates, but only if you want it to).

 

You and I are in agreement about flywheels, and their universal application in r-t-r locos would be one of the best things that could happen. I wasn't aware the O1 had one and am only too willing to concede that point.

 

Your track may be better than that on the layouts I have so far observed L1s in action (I would not judge any of them to be worse than average) but the loco seems to derail with very little provocation!

 

John

[D802 FORMIDABLE]

Having looked at my photo of re-named Britannia 'Lightning' I had to fix the late BR handholds on the deflectors which on this engine were actually the square type I think. 

 

Perhaps the lubricator arm on the valve gear is wrong being the 'long' type, or the ejector piping behind the smoke deflectors is not lowered, I will have to check these.

 

Had to change the deflectors anyway, and one thing led to another..  and the relevance to the topic is, to me, whether Hornby will retain this standard of modelling.

 

Britannia_70019_Carlisle_Days_2ab_r800_crop3.jpg

Cracking photo by the way Rob

[7013]

John, the O1 does have a flywheel, this can be confirmed if you look into the chimney! Another bit of clever design?

[Bulwell Hall]

GordonBennett! They are the best of the lot!  I'm only 62 and already my mind is failing!

 

here is another working pic., yes, incorrect cutouts because of aftermarket re-name. Hornby production models are all correct in this area. Superb model with light weathering UK (TMC) weathering plus a little photo-editing, the DoG will be as good I hope.

 

Image3ab_r800.jpg

 

That 'Brit' is quite stunning!  This is the standard - pun not intended -  that I was hoping/expecting that the 'Star' and the 72xx tanks would match.  Instead we have reduced quality models at the same full prices.  I for one would be very happy to pay even more for a 'Star' of the quality of the 'Brit' but having seen the advance sample of 'Lode Star' at STEAM have cancelled my advance order for 'Glastonbury Abbey'.  I haven't bothered with a 72xx - all very dissapointing! 

 

Now if Bachmann were to go for a top of the range 1000 'County' that could be quite something...........

[Coach bogie]

 

 

Now if Bachmann were to go for a top of the range 1000 'County'

it would have a list price of over £150, be two years late and the threads would be about overpricing.

 

Each to their own but I would not cancel a Star because of minor mouldings that can be changed in minutes if really an issue. Compared to £250+ for Star kit parts plus 50 hours building time at £30 an hour plus £150 painting fees, the Hornby loco at £105 from most sources a true bargain in my opinion. All I have to do is open the box and enjoy.

 

I find it interesting that the detail levels here http://www.goldenagemodels.net/GWR-Locomotives-Star-Class-OO-Gauge.html  is expected for modest mass produced prices.I would be surprised if the detail level of a few years back will ever return not without a doubling of current prices, based on recent Chinese wage increases - and Bachmann clearly are not exempt from 'design clever'. Look at the broad gauge tender brakes on current 'high tech' models.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

Okay, so 'Design Clever' was an own-goal as far as locomotive handrails are concerned, but I am sure the level of detail using minute plastic parts, as shown below, could not be sustained. The designer simply wasn't making the best use of plastic injection moulding.

 

Some of the components for fitting bogie stepboards on one LNER coach....