Stanier16 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I totally agree with your comments. We, the buying public are the ones that ensure Bachmann and Hornby continue to exist, by purchasing their products. I am not alone in thinking that for far too long companies like Hornby, have become to complacent in their contempt for the buying public. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Does anyone have some more pictures of these halls? Maybe of the footplate an cab detail? Also does anyone have pitchford hall yet? Can't wait to see one properly Cheers Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have news for you Mr.Broadman. We are consumersA fascinating post that neatly sets out the debate that's been ongoing on multiple threads recently. Do you consider yourself primarily a modeller or a consumer? And is it possible to be both in equal measure? Both are equally valid in their own way. In my own experience, modellers are itching to personalise their miniature world, while consumers want the best complete and finished product for the money that they're prepared to pay. As someone who grew up with the old Triang Halls and took great pleasure as a teenager in shortening the extended smokebox, adding wire handrails, lamp brackets and headlamps, attaching a kit built whitemetal Hawksworth tender to one of them and adding flanged centre wheelsets before a full repaint and relining, I think that the new Hornby Hall looks the part from the photos on the thread, although I share Stationmaster Mike's disappointment with the solid steam pipes. But maybe I'm just an old-fashioned 49 year old - after all, in my preferred scale (16mm), I've spent two years building a kit of the WHR's K1 Garratt. The kit cost me £700 and I've chosen to modify, rebuild or replace multiple parts. Value for money for me as a consumer? Probably not. Value for money for me as a modeller? Undoubtedly. It's given me two years of pleasure that's tested my ingenuity and skill on multiple occasions in the most enjoyable way. I can't wait to see how people personalise (or indeed "Modify") their new Hornby Halls. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 A fascinating post that neatly sets out the debate that's been ongoing on multiple threads recently. Do you consider yourself primarily a modeller or a consumer? And is it possible to be both in equal measure? Both are equally valid in their own way. In my own experience, modellers are itching to personalise their miniature world, while consumers want the best complete and finished product for the money that they're prepared to pay. As someone who grew up with the old Triang Halls and took great pleasure as a teenager in shortening the extended smokebox, adding wire handrails, lamp brackets and headlamps, attaching a kit built whitemetal Hawksworth tender to one of them and adding flanged centre wheelsets before a full repaint and relining, I think that the new Hornby Hall looks the part from the photos on the thread, although I share Stationmaster Mike's disappointment with the solid steam pipes. But maybe I'm just an old-fashioned 49 year old - after all, in my preferred scale (16mm), I've spent two years building a kit of the WHR's K1 Garratt. The kit cost me £700 and I've chosen to modify, rebuild or replace multiple parts. Value for money for me as a consumer? Probably not. Value for money for me as a modeller? Undoubtedly. It's given me two years of pleasure that's tested my ingenuity and skill on multiple occasions in the most enjoyable way. I can't wait to see how people personalise (or indeed "Modify") their new Hornby Halls. David A fascinating thread. Can't really believe I'm seeing phrases like 'insulting serious modellers' and 'complacency' and 'contempt' used to describe an (albeit mis-guided) attempt to turn out models that are more affordable. Just shows the totally OTT language that starts to fly around on forums when people get into full spate - and about something they probably haven't even seen. I, too, grew up with the old Tri-ang 'Hall' - indeed I even converted one (in Model Railway Constructor) into a pseudo-'Saint' - without putting larger wheels on, if I recall correctly, for which I should surely be cast from RMweb into outer darkness. I now have the nameplates, decals and paint to turn Olton Hall into a regular WR Hall. I've spent around £60 on those extras (and, no, I'm not bothering with new steam pipes, ejector etc) so, on that basis the standard range model, even if it has a couple of moulded-on details, is going to be a pretty good bargain by my reckoning. By the way, to those who are bothered by the steam pipes, we have pictures in Model Rail on which you can't see that the pipes are solid, alongside a picture of the real thing where you can't see that they are NOT solid! In truth that area is so dark that its difficult to see into from most angles. There are moulded details which are more evident but also easier to change, like the tender rear handrails. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 At the end of the day there is a choice, the Bachmann super detailed one (when parts are not mixed with the modified hall) and the Hornby. I prefer my Bachmann one, but then I am not a real fan of railroad standard detail. That is my preference and I respect those who prefer less fitted detail for cheaper cost. That said this lower standard did not stop me buying a P2 and ordering a crosti 9F. Even Railroad standard choice is better than no choice for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Chris Chewter Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 Does anyone have some more pictures of these halls? Maybe of the footplate an cab detail? Also does anyone have pitchford hall yet? Can't wait to see one properly Cheers Neil I'd take some photos of my Olton Hall, but its obvious from reading the posts above that some people have trouble differentiating between the Railroad version and the full version. Hopefully someone with a Pitchford Hall will take some photos of the full version soon. I'm also surprised how the thread is starting to take swipes at the manufacturer, and appears to be moving away from the topic. I don't mind people being critical about the model, that's what this discussion is all about. I do think its bad form for people to make a general criticise of Hornby. That should be made within the already existing extensive discussions found elsewhere on this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2015 Do feel free to post pics of Olton hall. I will certainly be doing so once mine has arrived here in New Zealand Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Dear Chris, You say that people on this forum are voicing opinions "about something they probably haven't even seen". How patronising can you get? Do you take us for fools? A significant number of folks on this thread are completely cheesed-off by Hornby's antics over the last few years and you seem to be in denial of the legitimacy of their view. Why are you and several other folks on this forum so threatened by any criticism actual or implied of Hornby Hobbies or their products? I'm genuinely baffled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Chris Chewter Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 Dear Chris, You say that people on this forum are voicing opinions "about something they probably haven't even seen". How patronising can you get? Do you take us for fools? A significant number of folks on this thread are completely cheesed-off by Hornby's antics over the last few years and you seem to be in denial of the legitimacy of their view. Why are you and several other folks on this forum so threatened by any criticism actual or implied of Hornby Hobbies or their products? I'm genuinely baffled. I'm surprised by your ferocity. Its a little unnecessary really! Have you seen the full version of the Hall? Can you post some photographs so we can all make an informed opinion? Can you post a review of what you've seen? I see no problems with criticism of the model, Has it too many rivits, spokes, wrong shape etc. I think that general criticism of the company should be posted elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2015 Can we please stop this bickering and get back to the topic in hand please. If you feel the need to bicker, private messaging is much better for te majority of the forums members. Now, does anyone have any pictures of the R3220 Pitchford Hall? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Dear Chris, You say that people on this forum are voicing opinions "about something they probably haven't even seen". How patronising can you get? Do you take us for fools? /quote] Please keep on topic and do not launch personal attacks on contributors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I wouldn't want to bet on it! Licensing is widespread now (the NRM certainly does it and not just for Flying Scotsman and Mallard). It may not be the pure Hogwarts livery but it is unique to that locomotive. CHRIS LEIGH Hi Chris, So you have to pay a licence fee to the NRM if you release a Mallard or Flying Scotsman? The mind boggles. Paddy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 There are a few (very few) railway icons that can be exploited to make money in the mass general public market place Mallard, Flying Scotsman, Hogwarts Express are probably the only three. All sorts of companies will want to use those associations to make money ...... why should the owners of the rights to those intellectual properties/images make money out of those who wish to make money by associating with those 'brands' ? Secondly, by controlling those rights it allows the rights owner to limit 'exploitation' of the brand. In short, 'Mallard' and 'Flying Scotsman' are brands .... and to use/exploit that brand costs money Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Chris, So you have to pay a licence fee to the NRM if you release a Mallard or Flying Scotsman? The mind boggles. Paddy Like it or not,it's one way of funding and the brand image is good publicity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Dear Chris, You say that people on this forum are voicing opinions "about something they probably haven't even seen". How patronising can you get? Do you take us for fools? A significant number of folks on this thread are completely cheesed-off by Hornby's antics over the last few years and you seem to be in denial of the legitimacy of their view. Why are you and several other folks on this forum so threatened by any criticism actual or implied of Hornby Hobbies or their products? I'm genuinely baffled. Not patronising at all. Read my post again. I, and my fellow reviewers at Model Rail have been as critical as anyone of some of Hornby's models. In fact I've been criticising them, on and off, when I considered it necessary for the past 50 years. My comment was aimed at the absurdity of the language that is used by some, these days. It is the need for such comments that baffles me. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Chris, So you have to pay a licence fee to the NRM if you release a Mallard or Flying Scotsman? The mind boggles. Paddy Or any other item which the NRM owns (so I believe). Licensing is not necessarily just about fees, it is also about protecting one licensee from duplication by another (the Class 71 seems to have slipped through that net). As I said, it is becoming more widespread as it is clearly a way for preservation groups and individuals to get their particular loco or whatever to earn its keep. I'm sure groups such as the A1 Trust, West Coast Railways and Vintage Trains are wise to such revenue sources. They are, after all, a matter of course for the main line network companies who want to ensure that their colours and logos are correctly used. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2015 I haven't seen a new Hornby Hall in the flesh, so can't comment on the specifics of that model, but in general terms from what people are saying all in all the model seems to be excellent as a Railroad item. Then we have the main range version and whether the "improvements" made to it are sufficient to, (i) justify the higher price and (ii) warrant its placement in the main range based on levels of detail compared to other main range models. On this, everyone will have their own opinion. Personally, I would prefer a greater difference in levels of detail, so the two versions stand clearly apart. For that reason I hope Hornby will not continue to develop a single model for both markets because some of the compromises that result will go too far for a main range model with a main range price. In the case of the Hall, however unnoticeable they may be, for me moulded steam pipes are that compromise too far for the main range. But I emphasise that is just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 I haven't seen a new Hornby Hall in the flesh, so can't comment on the specifics of that model, but in general terms from what people are saying all in all the model seems to be excellent as a Railroad item. Then we have the main range version and whether the "improvements" made to it are sufficient to, (i) justify the higher price and (ii) warrant its placement in the main range based on levels of detail compared to other main range models. On this, everyone will have their own opinion. Personally, I would prefer a greater difference in levels of detail, so the two versions stand clearly apart. For that reason I hope Hornby will not continue to develop a single model for both markets because some of the compromises that result will go too far for a main range model with a main range price. In the case of the Hall, however unnoticeable they may be, for me moulded steam pipes are that compromise too far for the main range. But I emphasise that is just my opinion. Quite agree. I think the problem with producing models which are used in both the Railroad and 'main' ranges is that they tend to fall between two stools and I retain my strong reservations that the 'main range' versions are unlikely to be worth the extra cost, even when the basic shape etc is well done (as with the 'Hall'). But what then happens is the detail shortcomings also seem to transfer to the 'main range' so a good basic shape might well acquire a higher quality more detailed livery finish but still has such things as the moulded steam pipes and tender rear handrails. Interestingly Hornby seemed at one stage to be in a right tangle over pricing on GW 4-6-0s - and didn't like being asked about it either - with the new production of the excellent 'Grange' at a lower price than the less highly detailed new (main range) 'Hall' notwithstanding the fact that the 'Grange has far more separately fitted components, and thus a higher assembly cost, than the new 'Hall'. Regrettably in my view the 'main range' version of the new 'Hall' will be delivering short of a reasonable expectation for that level of model unless some changes are made before the final production model appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 Now, does anyone have any pictures of the R3220 Pitchford Hall? Pictures on Rails site - https://railsofsheffield.com/tyseley-connection-pitchford-hall-train-pack-limited-edition-of-1000-r3220-JJJA26078.aspx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2015 Pictures on Rails site - https://railsofsheffield.com/tyseley-connection-pitchford-hall-train-pack-limited-edition-of-1000-r3220-JJJA26078.aspx Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but do we know for sure this is a main range version? After all, this is a Train Pack loco and Hornby has not shied away in the past from putting Railroad standard models in them. And I can't see a tender water scoop... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The pictures on the Rails site is from the Hornby catalogue and will probably be a CGI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but do we know for sure this is a main range version? After all, this is a Train Pack loco and Hornby has not shied away in the past from putting Railroad standard models in them. And I can't see a tender water scoop... I think all that is clear is that the 'main range' 'Hall', R3205 is as yet only illustrated on the Hornby website by a photo of the real engine on which it will be based whereas all the Railroad range 'Halls' are illustrated by coloured computer produced pictures. Not so helpful is that fact that the engine in the R3220 train pack looks exactly the same in the website illustrations as the Railroad 'Halls'. So it seems we won't really know what a main range one looks like until R3205 appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 From what I can see in the pictures of pitchford hall is it has a fall plate,cylinder cocks,brake gear fitted plus tender water scoop. Cheers Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ... value, like beauty, is in the "eye of the beholder". I suspect that the majority of the owners of the new Hornby K1 consider that they have great value for money. I further venture that very few would gladly trade in their new models for a "Design Clever" equivalent in exchange for £50 in their wallets... I certainly wouldn't, but particularly because of Hornby's recent track record waited until I had seen a K1 to ensure it was up to snuff (which it is, matching the previous LNER quartet of B1, B17, L1, O1). Not perfect mind, but at least in almost all respects 'right enough' as a worthwhile canvas to go on to personalise; those scalloped rather than square tender frame ends are going to have to be altered though. Now feeling reasonably confident that the announced product from Hornby that interests me is likely be the right stuff. But I shall be looking first before the wallet is opened, and not just because of the Design Unclever Deviation. Long before DUD was thought of, Hornby boobed badly on the Brush type 2 and Gresley gangwayed stock, products so flawed that I cannot craft my way to a solution, so they have gone unpurchased. I am happy to be a consumer, but if the product isn't good enough I won't buy, and will happily make for myself if it is vital. ... Unfortunately "Which?"don't do model trains so we (and the model press) do so instead... Now for this, be very grateful. Practically every product group I have had decent knowledge of, 'Which's findings run diametrically opposite the evidence I have had to hand. No faith in that operation's capability whatsoever with me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2015 There is what I think is an "actual image" on The Hereford Model Centre website, though it is far from being a detailed close up.Make of it what you will. Hattons certainly have not removed one for imaging to date.Odd,really... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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