In Praise of Industrials

[81A Oldoak]

I have been impressed with some of the threads in this section of the RMWeb. I thought I would post some photos of my collection of industrial locomotives. I don't yet have a layout, but boards have been built and are awaiting the next phase. At the moment, I am consumed with production of the Ixion Fowler 0-4-0 DM shunting locomotive. Here are some shots of my Kerr Stuart ROD Victory class loco built from the Agenoria kit. It has three-point beam compensation and is fitted with DCC sound. It is quite a beast, especially when parked alongside one of our Hudswell Clarke locos. I am tempted to build the  Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks Railways version that ended up in GWR and BR hands with the rather disconcerting running number "666".

 

More to follow. Stay tuned.

[hartleymartin]

It is an excellent model!

[Ruston]

Superb! More, please.

[Guest Isambarduk]

"Indeed more!"

 

Hear, hear!

 

"... photos of my collection of industrial locomotives. I don't yet have a layout"

 

Chris,  Me too.  When you are running short of exhibits here (great idea for a thread, BTW), may we make photo contributions, please?

 

David

[81A Oldoak]

Here are some shots of my 85A Models Hunslet before and after weathering of the superstructure. I bought this model in one of the rare eBay auctions that I have actually won. It cost £85 and was in good running order. However, a buffer head and the reversing leaver were missing and two of the cab hand-rails were missing. Remedail and detailing work was basically as follows:

 

1) Fit new buffer heads.

2) Replace all plastic cab hand-rails with wire.

3) Make and fit reversing lever and sanding levers from scrap brass strip.

4) Fit lamp irons fore and aft. They were made from brass strip.

5) Fit guard irons from wire to spectacle on rear cab.

6) Fabricate and fit sand-pipes from wire.

7) Add front steps soldered up from scrap brass.

8) Coal in bunker.

9) Add crew.

10. Fit works, number and name plates.

 

Adding the works plates and buffers probably cost about £15.00. I also fitted a DCC decoder and sound unit taking the total cost of the locomotive to about £200. Some lead in the loco also helped to improve adhesion. The weathering was a combination of air-brushing, dry brushing, washes and powders. I have since sold the locomotive for a very handsome profit on eBay as I now have rather a large number of 0-6-0 saddle-tanks from the Hudswell Clarke stable. It is a shame the Hunslet is no longer available, but we hope the Ixion Hudswell Clarke fills the gap.

 

I know David Smith has done up a Hunslet to a far higher standard than mine so let's see some shots of it up here.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[81A Oldoak]

Indeed more!

 

Though if you ever feel like re-doing Aberscoch, that would  be no bad thing either

I am building the Javelin 7mm scale kit of the Cambrian Railways 15 class 0-6-0 at the moment.

[David Siddall]

Was just having a small 'oh I say' moment over the photos of the Kerr Stuart only to spot the Hunslet and that was that – I now think I need a lie down! I've spent 50 years as a railway enthusiast and modeller and have only just discovered industrials – what a pillock, but hey I've got some serious making up to do!

 

Chris... I suppose you couldn't convince your team that a Hunslet just like that one would (IMHO) be a nice fit in the Ixion portfolio ;-)

 

David

[Dava]

Personally I think this type of Hunslet is much more attractive, and more suitable for smaller industrial lines, than the bigger 'Austerity' which DJ Models is apparently going to produce. There was one of the 85A locos at Guildex but at £150 I passed on it.

[Guest Isambarduk]

"I know David Smith has done up a Hunslet to a far higher standard than mine so let's see some shots of it up here."

 

Well I don't know about 'far higher standard', Chris - different, maybe but not better!  Anyway, here we go with a few photos, taken by my friend and former colleague, Martin Nellist:

 

 

 

I think this black and white photograph is more evocative of the age:

 

 

I have written up the story of how I built Airedale, with all the additional and different details that are to be expected on the first loco of the class, at: www.davidlosmith.co.uk/HunsletAiredale.htm  There's quite a bit of text; I must take some more pictures of the details that I am writing about to break it up a bit!

 

David

[81A Oldoak]

Personally I think this type of Hunslet is much more attractive, and more suitable for smaller industrial lines, than the bigger 'Austerity' which DJ Models is apparently going to produce. There was one of the 85A locos at Guildex but at £150 I passed on it.

 

£150 is a bargain if it was in good order. Mint condition kits can easily sell for up to $400. 

[81A Oldoak]

Was just having a small 'oh I say' moment over the photos of the Kerr Stuart only to spot the Hunslet and that was that – I now think I need a lie down! I've spent 50 years as a railway enthusiast and modeller and have only just discovered industrials – what a pillock, but hey I've got some serious making up to do!

 

Chris... I suppose you couldn't convince your team that a Hunslet just like that one would (IMHO) be a nice fit in the Ixion portfolio ;-)

 

David

 

You'll need to buy a Hudswell Clarke and a Fowler diesel first! The Hunslet would have been a perfect model for Ixion being an uncomplicated inside cylinder 0-6-0ST, but we couldn't take the commercial risk so the Hudswell it was. 

[David Siddall]

You'll need to buy a Hudswell Clarke and a Fowler diesel first! The Hunslet would have been a perfect model for Ixion being an uncomplicated inside cylinder 0-6-0ST, but we couldn't take the commercial risk so the Hudswell it was. 

Just need to finish the 121 and find it (or my Hymek) a new home and I'll be on the look-out for an HC (a plain black one for preference :-)

 

David

[Mike Bellamy]

 I'll be on the look-out for an HC (a plain black one for preference :-)

 

 

 

 . . . also available with or without sound and 'clean' or weathered from Paul Martin at EDM Models (of course I must declare an interest here as I help Paul at shows and other stockists are available !)

http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Ixion/Ixion.html

[Guest Isambarduk]

I’m sure we’re all waiting for another example from Chris, particularly if it’s as stunning as his Kerr Stuart ROD Victory class, with which he started this thread; I’ve seen the first picture of her before and I think it’s cracking – can’t wait to get out there with my rag and paraffin and start a good cleaning!

 

Anyway, as there were a good few ‘likes’ for my Airedale, my 15” Hunslet, I thought I’d offer photos of another of my industrials:

 

 

This is an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 fireless locomotive, Calderstones, which was built for the Calderstones Certified Institution for Mental Defectives in 1925 for work at their hospital in Whalley, near Blackburn in Lancashire.  My model includes a few of the castings from the Eric Underhill kit but it is almost entirely scratch built, including the footplate, cab buffers and buffer planks, steps, dome, exhaust, cylinders, valve gear and cab interior and other details. 

 

 

 

The wheels were cast in brass from my pattern and press-fitted with steel tyres for split-axle pickup.  I would have just made the four wheels centres from scratch (as I did for my LMS Fowler 0-4-0DM) but two other modellers said ‘Please would you also make a set for me?’.  Now four wheels is quite a bit of work but twelve wheels … forget it, so I made one pattern and a 4mm kit-supplier friend had castings made in brass for me and I had only to do the machining and make twelve tyres. 

 

 

David

 

 

[81A Oldoak]

THis post contains some photos of my personal example of the Ixion O Gauge RTR Manning Wardle H Class 0-4-0ST locomotive. This was one of a short run of brass locomotives that we had made quite quickly in between the Coffee Pot 0n30 steam railmotor and the Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST. 

 

The chassis is fully sprung and the running quality is superb. Some owners have commented on the absence of detail in the smokebox behind the opening door, but there is a good reason for this. We did not specify an opening door and it was only discovered when I was fiddling with my model so we had not planned for it. Further examination then revealed that with the aid of a cocktail stick the firebox could be opened, which was also not in the specification. 

 

The last of the photos shows the lined blue version in mint condition. I really did not like the shade of blue. It was far too bright and I had been expecting a shade closer to Prussian Blue. However and as the photos show, weathering resulted in a finish that was far more acceptable to me. The nameplate came from the Agenoria Kerr Stuart Victory kit that opened this forum, but I will probably replace it with a name from the Ixion Hudswell Clarke or Fowler diesel frets. The world famous working Ixion bucket can be seen hanging from the rear of the cab.

 

This loco is quite a rarity as only 103 were made, with 100 for sale and one loco for each of the Ixion partners. Chris Basten, the proprietor of Dragon Models, may have a couple left in stock. We will do a re-run if we have commitments for 50 locos. The price would be around £480 including VAT plus P&P for a loco finished in plain black livery with red buffer beams. 

 

One of our Australian customers has fitted DCC sound and a flickering light in the firebox to his Manning Wardle, which you can see in this Youtube clip:

[Osgood]

Nice model.   I managed to pick up a new unpainted variant from Dragon last year.

 

Why in this modern age are we seemingly unable to link the output of sound chips to wheel rotation? Or can we?

[81A Oldoak]

Nice model.   I managed to pick up a new unpainted variant from Dragon last year.

 

Why in this modern age are we seemingly unable to link the output of sound chips to wheel rotation? Or can we?

Good question and one for the DCC experts. The instructions that accompany the decoders usually include something about adding contacts and an extra pick-up to a wheel to help with synchronisation of sound. However, I find it very difficult to get satisfactory steam sounds. Diesels are fine, but I admit that I constantly consider removing all of the sound gear from my steam locos. However, I do like the control aspects of DCC so I usually resort to the simple expedient of not switching on Function 1 and running silent (like submarines). Chaz of Dock Green fame seems to have got to grips with sound so perhaps he might opine. But perhaps the bigger question is why in this modern age do we still have to supply electric power to locos through the rails and wheels? An idea for another forum perhaps?

[ngtrains.com]

Why in this modern age are we seemingly unable to link the output of sound chips to wheel rotation? Or can we?

 

Can I suggest you look at this page of my website - http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Synch_Cam/soundsynch.html

These are synch units for use with sound decoders and work without physical contacts using magnets to open and close a sealed read switch. (that's simplified the magnetics part of it a bit)

There are two sorts, the original ones are made of a fret that attaches around the axle in a sandwich so can be fitted to assembled wheel sets.

The 3/16" axle ones are solid and are designed to slide onto the axle as the wheels are assembled.

 

These do need the loco frames to be open so there is room to fit the unit so that precludes fitting them to most RTR loco's. However, exactly the same effect can be created by sticking smaller magnets (i use 2mm dia x 1mm) to the back of a wheel and then mounting the reed by glueing it to the keeper plate. I have done several Bachmann 0n30 loco's this way and am about to do three more.

 

All the current sound decoders I use, Soundtraxx, ESU and ZIMO can either synch the sounds electronically or can be switched to use a cam.  Where a cam isn't fitted I find the ZIMO decoders easiest to get a realistic synch on electronically. You change one CV so the sound is about right on step 4 (of 28) and then another to fine tune it with a another CV in step 1. The result is very accurate whilst running at speeds where you can still count the chuffs.

 

 

[David Siddall]

Good question and one for the DCC experts. The instructions that accompany the decoders usually include something about adding contacts and an extra pick-up to a wheel to help with synchronisation of sound. However, I find it very difficult to get satisfactory steam sounds. Diesels are fine, but I admit that I constantly consider removing all of the sound gear from my steam locos. However, I do like the control aspects of DCC so I usually resort to the simple expedient of not switching on Function 1 and running silent (like submarines). Chaz of Dock Green fame seems to have got to grips with sound so perhaps he might opine.

The issue I have with DCC steam sound, apart from the need for some serious base to replicate the true sound of a steam exhaust, is the (apparent) lack of options when starting; for example the sound of partially open cylinder drain cocks when drifting or the effect of the regulator being eased once the initial effort of starting is no longer required.

 

This video suggest that realistic coasting and pick-up as the regulator is reopened on the move is now viable but starting still seems to lack a certain something. As I ponder on my first 'industrial' and the design of my first 'micro' I really like the idea of sound to flesh out what will be a very small layout... but only if it can be made to 'sound right'.

 

 

 

David

 

PS: The DCC sound elves have sussed diesel-electric notching (both up and down) so we just need them to apply a similar level of ingenuity to steam.

[ngtrains.com]

I sympathise with your views but don't totally agree with them as what you describe can be achieved.

The Ixion 0 gauge models, if you fit the speaker they provide for (20mm dia underneath) do sound a bit weedy. That is a function of making them easy to fit by Joe Public. Speakers with a bit more ooopmh are possible to fit bit it takes a bit more work.

 

It was a bit of an eye opener though to spend a day recording with a noted expert at it and finding myself being interrogated on how steam engines actually work as I drive them and it quickly became obvious that he had little experience of them. Draincocks were one thing we discussed as the sound files I have from him have to chuff settings - think of it as light engine and loaded. The light engine versions starts with the drains open for a short period, they then close and the chuff intensifies. The loaded version starts without drains and with a much more intense chuff.  We were discussing how to do this better and I would prefer to see both versions without the draincocks sound but the sound on a function button. I'd rather use the function buttons for motion related events instead of some of the gimmicks placed on them such as taking water or the fireman opening his butty box

 

I will be seeking to educate the sound recordist by practical example

[81A Oldoak]

The issue I have with DCC steam sound, apart from the need for some serious base to replicate the true sound of a steam exhaust, is the (apparent) lack of options when starting; for example the sound of partially open cylinder drain cocks when drifting or the effect of the regulator being eased once the initial effort of starting is no longer required.

 

This video suggest that realistic coasting and pick-up as the regulator is reopened on the move is now viable but starting still seems to lack a certain something. As I ponder on my first 'industrial' and the design of my first 'micro' I really like the idea of sound to flesh out what will be a very small layout... but only if it can be made to 'sound right'.

 

 

 

David

 

PS: The DCC sound elves have sussed diesel-electric notching (both up and down) so we just need them to apply a similar level of ingenuity to steam.

 

Admittedly this is an amateur recording using simple equipment at a noisy show, but it just doesn't sound real. It's a bit like an upmarket version of the old bit of abrasive that Trang-Hornby used to fit in the tender of the GWR Hall in the late 1960s. It is certainly nothing like the real locos on my local preserved line The Mid-Hants. As I said, the diesels are generally ok, but the steamers will probably stay switched off on F1 for the time being. Anyway, I will try to get back onto the topic. 

[Andrew Young]

I sympathise with your views but don't totally agree with them as what you describe can be achieved.

The Ixion 0 gauge models, if you fit the speaker they provide for (20mm dia underneath) do sound a bit weedy. That is a function of making them easy to fit by Joe Public. Speakers with a bit more ooopmh are possible to fit bit it takes a bit more work.

 

It was a bit of an eye opener though to spend a day recording with a noted expert at it and finding myself being interrogated on how steam engines actually work as I drive them and it quickly became obvious that he had little experience of them. Draincocks were one thing we discussed as the sound files I have from him have to chuff settings - think of it as light engine and loaded. The light engine versions starts with the drains open for a short period, they then close and the chuff intensifies. The loaded version starts without drains and with a much more intense chuff.  We were discussing how to do this better and I would prefer to see both versions without the draincocks sound but the sound on a function button. I'd rather use the function buttons for motion related events instead of some of the gimmicks placed on them such as taking water or the fireman opening his butty box

 

I will be seeking to educate the sound recordist by practical example

 

It's the non-authentic sound for steam models that has put me off DCC and sound for so long, partly because the locos have been set up by people who do not understand how a steam loco is driven. This is also down to my own pedantic approach I suppose as like Paul, I also drive the real thing. Good to see the recorder being educated about such things as drain cock operation etc. I do now have a sound fitted Hudswell Clarke, just need to build somewhere for it to run then I can try it for myself!

 

Back on topic, really enjoying Chris's models, the weathering is superb. Hope you don't leave us waiting too long for the next instalment......

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Mike Bellamy]

I do now have a sound fitted Hudswell Clarke, just need to build somewhere for it to run then I can try it for myself!

 

 

The Club O gauge layout will be running at the Mickleover show this weekend and so you could try it there - although I guess the sound effects would be a bit random as the layout doesn't have DCC

 

Come and see me on the door for a free ticket

[hartleymartin]

If we're going to get more realistic sound for steam, I think that we need to have a way of more intimately linking the throttle controls. We should be using a regulator and a brake and a number of other controls. I think to get the difference between loaded and unloaded we'll probably have to get some sort of switch attached to the coupling hooks or some sort of loading detection from the motor to tell the difference between light ending and loaded, so the bark of the exhaust note changes.

 

In the end, most people will be fairly happy if there is a chuff at the right rate, a whistle and some hissing noises. I've been rather tempted to have a Thomas layout and use the sounds off the 1980's Thomas the Tank Engine series for the sound effects. It's a good thing that my budget only allows for O gauge at the moment.

[Izzy]

"I know David Smith has done up a Hunslet to a far higher standard than mine so let's see some shots of it up here."

 

Well I don't know about 'far higher standard', Chris - different, maybe but not better!  Anyway, here we go with a few photos, taken by my friend and former colleague, Martin Nellist:

 

Hunslet_Airedale.jpg

 

Hunslet_Airedale2.jpg

 

I think this black and white photograph is more evocative of the age:

 

Hunslet-AiredaleBW.jpg

 

I have written up the story of how I built Airedale, with all the additional and different details that are to be expected on the first loco of the class, at: www.davidlosmith.co.uk/HunsletAiredale.htm  There's quite a bit of text; I must take some more pictures of the details that I am writing about to break it up a bit!

 

David

 

There's an interesting B/W shot of Airedale in later life on P48 of Adrian J Booth's book, Industrial Steam, Bradford Barton 1976, ISBN 0 85153 236 5. This shows her at Ackton Hall Colliery (NCB), Featherstone, in 1972, fitted with a short stovepipe chimney. I don't think it adds anything to the looks. Having built a 16" from an Impetus kit I think that the more normal chimney looks far better, but the NCB seeemed to fit quite a few 16"/18" Hunslets with squat/odd versions in their later lives. 

 

Izzy