Cannock Chase Military Railway Locomotives

[wagonbasher]

Hi

 

I have always had an interest in the Cannock Chase Military Railway of WW1, ever since I spotted Bilberries growing in sleeper indents about 30 years ago.

 

With a back dated 1950's Black Country blues to satisfy my steam dreams I am looking at a smaller layout to build at home.

 

So, I am researching the chase railway with a view to modelling a condensed version of the real thing featuring some of the best bits.

 

Locomotives were a mixture of borrowed (many from the Cannock / Hednesford coal fields) and new.

 

There were a two or maybe three manning wardle's class I or K's ?

 

166 / 1875 (Messenger) included in the only identifiable shot of a train on the chase

812 / 1881

1513 / 1901 (there is no record of this loco on the chase except they ordered spare parts for it)

 

Then, brand new

 

Avonside

 

1742 / 1916

 

 

There were others....

 

Does anyone know if those manning wardle locos where I's or K' class locos which RT models cover or something else.

 

Was the Avonside one of the numerous B3's as per the Agenoria kit ? (is that the same as the restored Woolmer MOD loco?)

 

Wagons will be easy, pre grouping open stock, minerals and vans and not too numerous (incredible inclines prevented long trains), strictly goods once the camps opened.

 

Camp huts will be resin cast by me as they are modular in design.

 

If you know anything about those locos and how I might model them please shout up.

 

Andy

[Andy Y]

Small minds (or something like that); I was discussing a WW1 anniversary project last week (and I've also fancied doing a small slice of Brocton Camp, down by the coal drops for the officers' quarters and the blacksmiths) and I've been up to the Messines excavations today; are you spying inside my head Mr. Banks?

 

There's a more expansive list of possible locos here - http://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/tackeroo-the-military-railway/

[wagonbasher]

Small minds (or something like that); I was discussing a WW1 anniversary project last week (and I've also fancied doing a small slice of Brocton Camp, down by the coal drops for the officers' quarters and the blacksmiths) and I've been up to the Messines excavations today; are you spying inside my head Mr. Banks?

 

There's a more expansive list of possible locos here - http://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/tackeroo-the-military-railway/

We were up at the excavations on Sunday,  My thoughts were up by the power house and ordnance store - That sounds like a joint project to me.... you were going to do the green stuff anyway !!!

 

Andy

[Andy Y]

 you were going to do the green stuff anyway !!!

 

Charming!

 

Is this a good time to mention I've got 3 No. 3'6" x 2' lightweight board frames in the garage and a rotating fiddleyard?

[wagonbasher]

Its a start

 

Andy

[TheSignalEngineer]

will watch with interest. We often used the old railway as a route on and off the Chase from Milford when walking and biking.

[Mark Forrest]

Sounds interesting. Can you be tempted to do this one in P4? Go on, you know it makes sense.....

[wagonbasher]

Sounds interesting. Can you be tempted to do this one in P4? Go on, you know it makes sense.....

 

With no locos, no wagons (and not many of either required) and no track it would be hard to argue against your view....  My concern is that P4 wheels don't have any flanges...  do they ?

 

Andy

[Andy Y]

 you were going to do the green stuff anyway !!!

 

Only if you paint the wagonloads.

 

[Izzy]

Oh heck, looks like I need to add a few more figures on the footplate...... The fireman might need to work even harder than he seems to now, always shovelling coal into the firebox.....

 

 

Izzy

[wagonbasher]

The loco in the forground is  MW messenger.  

[Izzy]

Not sure what type that would be. No 2 is a I class - un-equal wheelbase - with the early square rivetted tank. I used the info in MRJ 12 to build it, along with some in one of the MRJ compendiums I seem to remember. All the info being written by Don Townsley. I'll have a look at what info I have to see if Messenger or the others noted are mentioned anywhere.

 

Izzy

[PGH]

There were a two or maybe three manning wardle's class I or K's ?

 

166 / 1875 (Messenger) included in the only identifiable shot of a train on the chase

812 / 1881

1513 / 1901 (there is no record of this loco on the chase except they ordered spare parts for it)

 

Then, brand new

 

Avonside

 

1742 / 1916

 

 

There were others....

 

Does anyone know if those manning wardle locos where I's or K' class locos which RT models cover or something else.

 

Was the Avonside one of the numerous B3's as per the Agenoria kit ? (is that the same as the restored Woolmer MOD loco?)

 

If you know anything about those locos and how I might model them please shout up.

 

Andy

 

Manning Wardle  166 of 1865  was a K Class

Manning Wardle  812/81  was also a K Class

Manning Wardle  1513/01 was a slightly larger L Class

 

Avonside  1742/16  was indeed a B3 Class

[wagonbasher]

I couldn't have asked for a better answer.

 

Many thanks

 

 

Andy B

[Izzy]

Looks like you might have the locos sorted if your using 4mm. Although I think the MW's will pose a challange - whatever the gauge - in respect of motor/gearbox configurations. As No 2 is 7mm I managed to squeeze a Mashima 16x30 into the firebox, sitting vertically, and mated to a homebrewed D/R 80-1 gearbox. I see RT reccomend the use of a 10x15 motor. Goodness, I now use similar sizes in 2mm, the scale I currently work in. Although a 4mm MW would be small, I think such a small motor might struggle, with normal sized 4mm gears absorbing a good deal of the motors power output.

 

Izzy

[wagonbasher]

Thanks for the heads up re the Manning Wardle.....   I have been reading the RMweb horror stories of MW construction / motor and gear box fitting.  If anyone has a good news story please let us know.

 

Andy

[Adam]

Looks like you might have the locos sorted if your using 4mm. Although I think the MW's will pose a challange - whatever the gauge - in respect of motor/gearbox configurations. As No 2 is 7mm I managed to squeeze a Mashima 16x30 into the firebox, sitting vertically, and mated to a homebrewed D/R 80-1 gearbox. I see RT reccomend the use of a 10x15 motor. Goodness, I now use similar sizes in 2mm, the scale I currently work in. Although a 4mm MW would be small, I think such a small motor might struggle, with normal sized 4mm gears absorbing a good deal of the motors power output.

 

Izzy

 

Based on my experience with small motors in small 4mm industrials there isn't much to worry about. The little Mashima flat can has a perfectly reasonable power output and the earlier open frame variety (10x16 I think), is quite happy in my 4mm Impetus Hunslet driving 54:1 plastic gears hauling between 15-20 wagons round a reasonably challenging EM circuit. The motor will get a bit warm after doing that for half an hour continuously but that's an extreme case; it's far from hot.

 

That's roughly what the real thing would have managed on similar gradients (there is a flyunder/over on the circuit in question, I think the gradient, on a curve, is about 1 in 50 or 60). I would expect a Manning, Wardle of the type Robert produces to manage a bit less, but that's mostly down to adhesive weight; I wouldn't expect the size of motor or friction in the drive train to be an especially limiting factor, particularly on a small, flat, shunting layout; you'll get far more friction from stiff pick-ups and I've been there and done that.

Adam

[wagonbasher]

Based on my experience with small motors in small 4mm industrials there isn't much to worry about. The little Mashima flat can has a perfectly reasonable power output and the earlier open frame variety (10x16 I think), is quite happy in my 4mm Impetus Hunslet driving 54:1 plastic gears hauling between 15-20 wagons round a reasonably challenging EM circuit. The motor will get a bit warm after doing that for half an hour continuously but that's an extreme case; it's far from hot.

 

That's roughly what the real thing would have managed on similar gradients (there is a flyunder/over on the circuit in question, I think the gradient, on a curve, is about 1 in 50 or 60). I would expect a Manning, Wardle of the type Robert produces to manage a bit less, but that's mostly down to adhesive weight; I wouldn't expect the size of motor or friction in the drive train to be an especially limiting factor, particularly on a small, flat, shunting layout; you'll get far more friction from stiff pick-ups and I've been there and done that.

Adam

Your comments are very helpful and reassuring.  Robert from RT models uses mashima 1012's in his - I contacted him today.  Our prototype had obscenely steep grades for little engines 1:15 for example so we will be prototypically pulling 2 or 3 wagons max.

 

Andy

[2ManySpams]

Nice plan for a layout Andy - we used to regularly walk along the old track bed on a Sunday when I was in Stafford (and school age).

 

See, I told you this new fangled-RMweb thingy was useful - there's loads of info in the collective 'hive-mind'!

[wagonbasher]

Looking at the c&l range I wondered..... Oooh 8' 6" sleepers or the older 9' sleepers.

 

they changed in 1914... Joy, the year they started laying the chase's military railway.

 

Fretting, the old gringo reminded me that if I can measure the track bed we may be able to work it out... (Maybe). I also think there are some rather soggy sleeper indents so it may be possible to measure and work it out.

 

the Old gringo then said who's chairs, how many bolts?

 

Thanks for that. If anyone knows or knows, who knows please shout up

 

Andy (just five grainy pictures to look at) Banks

[Mark Forrest]

Might find it was flat bottom rail, possibly spiked to the sleepers

[Adam]

Might find it was flat bottom rail, possibly spiked to the sleepers

 

I would reckon that to be very likely; cheap, quick and 'normal' for military railways, particularly of that date.

 

Adam

[Andy Y]

I would reckon that to be very likely; cheap, quick and 'normal' for military railways, particularly of that date.

 

Adam

 

Entirely logical but part of the equation is that the building of the line was contracted to the West Cannock Colliery Company so it'll be useful to see what their methods were at that time on other lines if there's no material forthcoming on the CCMR. A similar question surrounds signalling, I thought I'd got a good idea looking at part of the Cannock Mineral Railway but found that section was under LNWR control with some lovely slotted signals.

[nigelb]

you could try contacting the Royal Engineers  museum   they were responsible for the army's rail way works

 

http://www.re-museum.co.uk/

[wagonbasher]

Ok, spent an afternoon with mr Y with our heads buried in a couple of books and yes it does appear to be spiked track. I have a copy of volume1of the long moor railway book. Lots of shots of spiked track with what appears to be very shallow chair with two bolts on the outside of the rail with a step to stop the gauge spreading and a hole to allow a single spike through the chair on the inside of the rail.

 

Please shout up if you can add more regarding the prototype or how to model it

 

Andy