North London Railway

[Penlan]

E & W Y U R, there is a prototype photo, somewhere, of one of these wagons showing the lettering.

Edit It's here >>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/818-ewyurly-wagon/?p=5400&fromsearch=1&do=findComment&comment=5400
I came across the Company when looking through the 1917 'Railway Year Book', which list the stock assets of companies. This Company had 6 loco's and 217 wagons (and 1 'goods motor').
So on my mission to have something nobody else is likely to have, I sought details (and got them).

I also wanted something 'local' for the York Show when Penlan was exhibited there.
Much the same as I doubt there's many layouts with a 'Wirral Railway' van on it. (15 loco's, lots of coaches, 83 open wagons and 3 vans). They just had 'W'  and 'R' on the sides.  I'm sure an open wagon photo was posted on RMweb a year or two ago. 
Ah, yes, here >>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34474-would-like-wirral-railway-goods-stock-livery/

There exists a drawing of a Van with the lettering on too, it's on RMweb somewhere.

 

PS - I've given up (well almost) trying to do PO wagons nobody else is likely to have.    

 

The old maxim 'don't copy other peoples models' came true recently, I saw a Victoria Salt (Stafford) wagon recently on another layout - I 'created' the livery some 30 years ago, they didn't own any wagons circa 1900. 
The owner said he'd seen the livery in a photo.     

Edited October 23, 2015 by Penlan

[MarcD]

There is another photo of a E&WYUR wagon in Vol 1 of the LNER wagon book. We used to do a kit for one in 7mm and we got all the info from the book. similar wagons were bought by the Lancashire Derbyshire and East Cost Rly (became GER in 1907).

 

Marc

[Penlan]

Simon Dunkley... See, we are getting closer with the G.E.Rly.... 

 

Coal traffic into London was a very big operation, a lot by rail as well as collier boats from the North east.
So there is the possibility, even if slight, that almost anything could be seen on the N.L.Rly at one stage or another.

.

A feature of RMweb is topic drift, something I have to admit I am a subscriber to, but sometimes, just sometimes there's a point of interest made.

On a totally different item - some private emails I'm involved with at present over lines of PO wagons in South Wales circa. 1900 - all sorts of (foriegn) wagons have been seen in the colliery sidings including a Highland Railway wagon..  Unfortunately the photo being discussed is subject to both copyright and the current owner wants exclusive rights ready for publication.  I respect that.

I am also involved with another photo with a central Wales PO wagon location, again copyright means I can't post it, but there is considerable debate on some of the lettering.

 

In 1922, the RCH did a nationwide survey of every RCH depot location (number takers etc.,) of what was in the sidings at midnight. I've only ever seen the sheet for Bristol, but it would be interesting to see all the other locations with what Railway Co. vehicles where there.  But I've never been able to track done the paperwork, probably another victim of the blitz.  The Bristol listing can be seen at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74171-welcome-to-pre-grouping/page-2 post #47.

Finally, as has been said many a time, "... it's my layout, I will run what I want".

[Penlan]

..... the Lancashire Derbyshire and East Cost Rly (became GER in 1907). 

I feel another wagon coming into ...... 

[Penlan]

I know that Yorkshire is north of London, but was not aware of it being serviced by the North London Railway.

 

BTW ... London is a suburb of Yorkshire, or so my mate Ephraim Postlethwaite tells me.  

Edited October 23, 2015 by Penlan

[Echo]

similar wagons were bought by the Lancashire Derbyshire and East Cost Rly (became GER in 1907).

 

Marc

 

The Great Central took over the LD&EC, not the GER

[MarcD]

Typepo should have typed GCR not GER. LDECR did have a lot of GER designed wagons including box vans and opens.

 

Marc

[Penlan]

Perhaps it wouldn't have reached the N.L.Rly., but here's the fictitious 'Victoria Salt' van, somebody copied as for real.....

Uhmn, I see the couplings missing from one end.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Penlan

[billbedford]

There is another photo of a E&WYUR wagon in Vol 1 of the LNER wagon book. We used to do a kit for one in 7mm and we got all the info from the book. similar wagons were bought by the Lancashire Derbyshire and East Cost Rly (became GER in 1907).

 

There's a photo of a E&WYUR brake van in the first edition of LNER wagons.

Edited October 24, 2015 by billbedford

[t-b-g]

Anybody extolling the virtues of modelling the LD&ECR is leaning against an open door with me. I have had several LD themed layouts, although set in the period after the GCR took over and I have examples of all 4 of the LD&ECR loco classes. 2 came with "Buckingham". There is an 0-4-4T in LD&ECR livery and an 0-6-0T in GCR condition. 3 more (0-6-4T, 0-6-2T and another 0-6-0T) were built by me and are in LNER condition but will get a "backdating" session since my change of modelling period.

 

To get vaguely back on topic, the latest layout is called Mansfield Market Place and although it is very loosely based on what the LD&ECR might have done had the proposed branch to Mansfield had been built, the buildings are based on Chesterfield Market Place, hence the name. Several GCR locos are available but It will be a long time until suitable stock is built and so we scrounge rakes of carriages from our other layouts.

 

I spent one show convincing folk that the set of 4 wheelers (ex Narrow Road) was from the rather obscure and little known "North Lincolnshire Railway" and any resemblance to similar carriages on the North London Railway was a pure coincidence. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by t-b-g

[MarcD]

We do a LDECR 5plk and Box van as 7mm kits I have some drawings for some locos and coaches as well so watch this space if your interested?

 

Marc

[Echo]

From memory, some LD&EC drawings are just not fit for purpose. I remember drawings being published in the Model Railway Constructor for the 0-4-4T and some coaches, all of which had glaring errors. A drawing of the 0-6-0T in the Railway Modeller was a bit better, but not much. The Skinley drawing of the 0-4-4T is drawn as if designed by Robinson, even though built to Kitson designs and built well before the GC/LDECmerger.

 

I guess that was true of many drawings in the model railway press in the good old days!

[CKPR]

From memory, some LD&EC drawings are just not fit for purpose. I remember drawings being published in the Model Railway Constructor for the 0-4-4T and some coaches, all of which had glaring errors. A drawing of the 0-6-0T in the Railway Modeller was a bit better, but not much. The Skinley drawing of the 0-4-4T is drawn as if designed by Robinson, even though built to Kitson designs and built well before the GC/LDECmerger.

 

I guess that was true of many drawings in the model railway press in the good old days!

Don't get me started about those inaccurate loco drawings from the 1960s. My first two M&CR engines were written off as practice pieces when it became apparent that the drawings were so wrong, they were not even even wrong...

[MarcD]

The first wagon I design as part of my degree project was based a drawing in a well known book of Furness railway drawings, not naming any authors. It was a steep learning curve, as it hit my student pocket hard. Now I have to have a photo to match any GA of I will not even look at it.

 

Marc  

[Poggy1165]

If you can find accurate drawings I for one would love an LDEC loco. All four types would be exactly up my street, although I'll admit I've always had a longing for those hulking 0-6-4ts. And coaches, yes please.

 

As I understand it, the ex-LDEC locos were maintained at Tuxford in GCR days and continued to be lined out in LDEC style, but with 'Great Central' on the tanks and GCR numberplates. (As were certain GCR standard types apparently, though I've never seen any firm info. as to the numbers of the locos in question. Always thought they would make an interesting 'alternative' to bewilder the purists.)

Edited October 31, 2015 by Poggy1165

[billbedford]

There are GAs and frame plans for the class C 0-4-4T and the class D 0-6-4T in the NRM. Let me know if you want the catalogue numbers.

[CKPR]

The first wagon I design as part of my degree project was based a drawing in a well known book of Furness railway drawings, not naming any authors. It was a steep learning curve, as it hit my student pocket hard. Now I have to have a photo to match any GA of I will not even look at it.

 

Marc  

We fools 'rush' in, etc...

[MarcD]

I no longer "Rush" to build anything from that publication very good for stats but the drawings are close to a work of fiction more of an artists impression than a GA.

 

Marc 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Always unable to really decide between 2mm (for space) and 4mm (because I can see it properly), I am thinking of building a layout in each. I think that my choice for 4mm will be based on the North London because it will enable me to run various locos and stock that I like. My earliest railway memories are of Willesden so perhaps something subliminal going on???

 

Anyway, a quick question, as I don't have any books to hand. Was the four-rail electrification applied to all tracks between Camden Rd and Highbury & Islington? Or just to one pair of tracks?

[t-b-g]

I have very mixed feelings over this business of accuracy of drawings. There are proper railway GA drawings which are known to be not how the real thing ended up looking when it was built. I modellers sketch type drawing may contain some errors but it is infinitely better than the one that you haven't got.

 

If Peter Denny had decided that he wouldn't build a loco unless he had a GA and photos then he would have built precisely nothing. He often had dimensions such as wheel diameter and wheelbase, plus a photo and from those he would do his own drawing, which was good enough for him to build a model that was instantly recognisable for what it was supposed to be. They may be the odd millimetre or two out here or there but there are 20 scratchbuilt locos working on the layout and they all look pretty good to me.

 

Now I, on the other hand, like to try to make things as accurately as I can. So it seems a bit odd to me to start cutting metal out for a set of frames or a footplate unless I know how long the real ones were. I did acquire some modellers drawings of the LD&ECR 0-6-0T and 0-6-2T tank locos and I built my models from them, with some slight adjustment for one or two parts that didn't look quite right, like the radius of the curve of the cab roof.

 

The results are two locos that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Are they 100% accurate? I don't know. Do they look like a J60 and an N6 (LNER classification)? Yes they do.

 

Perhaps most important of all. Did I enjoy building them and do I enjoy having two quite unusual locos to run? Very much and yes!

 

So while I like to think that I build my models to be as accurate as I can, I don't let the pursuit of 100% accuracy stop me getting on with my modelling.

 

There was a half decent 0-6-4T drawing by Charles Reddy (who was one of the better model railway drawing draughtsmen) in the RM possibly in the 70s. I can't lay my hands on my copy at the moment (OK _ I have forgotten where I keep it!) but I am sure somebody in RMWeb land can help. 

[ian@stenochs]

t-b-g, I totally agree with you re modellers drawings. I learned my lesson on one of the WHO drawings in the modeller in the 60s which were tagged as modellers 'sketchbook' but I did at least build a model which from a distance looked not too bad. Just like an impressionist painting, the further away you are the better it looks.

[Penlan]

One has to be mindful that in the 1960's - 50 years ago - access to GA's etc., was not easy, add another 20 years back to when Peter Denny started modelling, well hardly anything was available to most people.

[Poggy1165]

I think the Peter Denny approach was an entirely sensible one. As far as GC wagons are concerned, I defy anyone to find me a photo of certain highly desirable little beauties. The NRM has a certain number of GA drawings, but their collection (whether of locos, coaches or wagons) is far from complete. Indeed I have some drawings from that source that are mere sketches. Better than nowt, but far short of ideal. 

 

Funnily enough, I was talking about this very thing the other day with a fellow GC nut. He got the dimensions for a wagon from official sources - I rather think the diagram book. Then he was given a Guy Hemingway sketch based on actual measurements of a real vehicle of the type. There were a number of quite major differences - for example I think off hand the length was 3" more than it 'should' have been. So what does one believe? Personally, I'd back Mr Hemingway, who was there to see it and had a tape measure. I doubt Sir Sam Fay lay awake at night worrying about the exact measurements of his 3 plank wagons, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there were variations within a group of wagons belonging to a particular diagram.

[billbedford]

Many of the wagons that Guy Hemingway measured were in use by contractor building the Longdendale reservoirs in the early 1930s, so the wagon in question was likely to have been an old one sold out of service and so had many small differences to the wagon shown in the diagram books.

Edited December 24, 2015 by billbedford

[Caley Jim]

Funnily enough, I was talking about this very thing the other day with a fellow GC nut. He got the dimensions for a wagon from official sources - I rather think the diagram book. Then he was given a Guy Hemingway sketch based on actual measurements of a real vehicle of the type. There were a number of quite major differences - for example I think off hand the length was 3" more than it 'should' have been. So what does one believe? Personally, I'd back Mr Hemingway, who was there to see it and had a tape measure. 

Diagram books tended to quote the internal dimensions of a wagon.  Remember, they were produced for the benefit of the railways operating employees, so that they could specify a suitable wagon for the load in hand.  CR wagon diagrams include both external and internal dimensions.

 

Jim