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Peter Bedding

LSWR Switches and Crossings - 1891 to 1918 Patterns

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I have a partially finished research project, from some years back and pre-Forum, and I have thought it about time that I try again to make progress. I know some answers to the questions below, but I have thought to see if the Forum professional expertise can be brought to bear.

 

post-489-0-21519400-1383318214.jpg

 

Does any member/reader recognise this diagram? In particular the date and the origin?

 

Does any member/reader know of more diagrams in this, or similar series?

 

Some answers may be inferred from the Forum section, and my own declared area of interest. With luck, the direction of the thread will be of interest and value.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

PB

Edited by Peter Bedding

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My guess would be a Permanent Way diagram circa. 1960's relating to track work given the reference number and the 4'8" distance between the parallel lines.

 

Other than that I can guess no more.

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I had hoped that my earlier posting might ring some distant bells. A significant number of Forum members are generally well-versed in all aspects of the prototype, and even the more obscure topics like Pre-Grouping S&C could attract interest.

 

Firstly, to complete the part-picture above:

 

post-489-0-25565700-1383398183_thumb.jpg

 

Collecting various ancient documents from different sources provides an incomplete picture. Like the early scientists assembling the detail to "discover" the periodic table, the documents individually are insufficient but when collected and taken together, a better picture does appear out of the mists of time.

 

It would seem that the LSWR had some five evolutionary periods for their PW: rail sizes and corresponding patterns for S&C:

 

Pre-1891.

1891.

1902.

1908/9.

1918.

 

Some major characteristics were repeated, from one period to the next, and others changed. Some drawings exist from 1891 onwards (I hold a modest archive), and photographs help fill in the gaps.

 

I believe that the Drawing above is "offcial", in that it was rescued from a Woking office where it would have been trashed in the post-Beeching  purge. The table collates each of the leads for the various formations defined by the 1902 geometry.

 

If the Forum is interested, I have more!

 

PB

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The 1908 Standard introduced BS90lb rail, and heel-less switches. Below are copies of Waterloo drawings of Numbers 1 and 2 switches, 1908 pattern

 

post-489-0-94007300-1383413939.jpg

 

Before this the rail appears to have been LSWR standard 90lb, with straight or loose-heeled switches. These straight switch turnouts were long-lasting. They appear in various photos taken after Grouping, and one is said to have been in use at Sandown IoW at the end of Island steam. Below is a copy of Waterloo drawing of a Common Crossing - 1 in 8 - 1891 pattern

 

post-489-0-50398900-1383413954.jpg

 

From looking at the various drawings that I have I would seem that the timbering for each of the standard designs for switches and crossings was reasonably consistent. There does appear to have been scope for site variation between the switch and the crossing, and this would have been left to the discretion of the appropriate District Inspector.

 

Timbering did vary at the crossing, however. Each drawing for common crossings depicts the timbers as normal to the centreline. In practice, where there were no other considerations, the timbers generally seem to have been laid normal to the direction of travel on the major line.

 

 

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Thanks for starting this thread Peter, it's an area I know nothing about - but would like to learn more (because it's applicable to early SR as well).

Edited by Southernboy

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I have a partially finished research project, from some years back and pre-Forum, and I have thought it about time that I try again to make progress. I know some answers to the questions below, but I have thought to see if the Forum professional expertise can be brought to bear.

 

Does any member/reader know of more diagrams in this, or similar series?

 

Some answers may be inferred from the Forum section, and my own declared area of interest. With luck, the direction of the thread will be of interest and value.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

PB

Peter

Does this site help?

Best wishes

Eric

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Peter

Does this site help?

Best wishes

Eric

 

Peter

Does this site help?

Best wishes

Eric

 

Eric,

 

Many thanks indeed, I had no idea that such a website existed. I see that the Brighton is included. The LSW entry appears consistent with my own earlier research using Waterloo drawings for 1891. I shall include a drawing in a new posting. 

Edited by Peter Bedding

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Thanks for starting this thread Peter, it's an area I know nothing about - but would like to learn more (because it's applicable to early SR as well).

 

Thanks for the interest. I  am about to scan a drawing of mine for my next posting. The drawing is one of a series produced for the SWC some 15 years ago, and is largely compatible with the South Western drawing that is on the link provided by "Burgundy".

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Much helped by others, I produced a small series of drawings for the SWC back in 1998 to add to the Circle's Drawing Library. (Copies of which are available to SWC members!)

 

I have, however, attached scans of a couple of my drawings here, because I believe that they stand scrutiny when compared with the website information linked by "Burgundy" (above).

 

post-489-0-55759300-1383481198.jpg

 

post-489-0-47424000-1383481231.jpg

 

 

One of my aims, in starting this thread, is to try (again) to interest some professional chaps who might have access to installation records, that add lead and radius dimensions to the Waterloo data.

 

My belief is that the Waterloo drawings were intended for the guidance of wise men, and were not slavishly observed on site. Therefore an accurate model need not conform in every last detail with a Design Office intention.

 

post-489-0-96934700-1383482081.jpg

 

With apologies for the poor quality of this part-photo, the date of which is uncertain; the road over-bridge at the far end of the station does not appear to have the ND&CJLR access arch, which suggests a pre-1920's date. I hope it conveys a sense of practice which seems to have been appropriate in the Pre-Grouping era. The interlacing of timbers is not haphazard, but nor does it conform with the Drawing Office plan! Likewise, (not immediately apparent on this photo) switches and crossings from different periods are used in the same formation.

 

I hope this is of interest.

 

PB

 

 

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The drawing itself is a reference for setting out turnout leads and offsets: there would be a corresponding table with the various distances for a number of crossing vee angles. The text at the top right is in a different hand, but reminds me very clearly of the handwriting of the late Norman Pattenden. When he was working on his Exbury layout in the 1980s, which was set circa 1912, but the track work was based on earlier practices, using lighter weight rail than would be used on mainlines being (re-)laid post 1908. In Norman's case, he was using code 75 rail in S scale, but he went to great lengths to get the timber spacings correct, and would have made a lot of effort to replicate the idiosyncrasies of late Victorian LSWR permanent way, including switch design, so it could possibly be something he had stored and carefully filed like the good railwayman he was.

 

Hope that is of some help.

 

Simon

 

Hello Simon,

 

Very many thanks for your comment, and useful identification. The drawing PWa/14 came to me via the SWC, and it would have been quite feasible for it to have passed through Norman's hands at some stage. The trouble is, so many of the chaps who had first hand information have passed on, and, so often, the research trails that I attempted to follow have also gone cold.

 

At least you recognised the purpose of the drawing, which now makes you the resident expert!!

 

With your S Scale Society contacts, would you know of anyone who was beneficiary of Norman's archive and library? Can the relevant parts be retrieved for SWC use?

 

Be well

 

PB.

 

PS. You may have noticed that I use 3/16inch: 1ft for my drawing scale. It makes sense!

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Peter - in your post #4, is the dimension at the end of the check rails 4"?

 

That is correct, Miss P. Note also the curved ends for the check rails of the earlier periods. From 1908 they take a different shape:

 

post-489-0-51899100-1383598727_thumb.jpg

 

The clearance dimension in this case (LSWR)  is shown as 3.1/2".  The pre-grouping S&C is a lot more interesting than the later REA pattern.

 

Hth.

 

PB

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I ought to have included this as a header, at the start of this topic, but I have only just collected it from the copyshop. The original is on a microfiche.

 

However, it may help illustrate my purpose:-

 

post-489-0-52500600-1383756234.jpg

 

 

This second picture, today, shows that a researcher need not be confined to UK shores for primary information. The French technical journals were excellent at keeping in touch with UK engineering; this copy of a cutting is also the oldest "evidence" that I have found. (The late Denis Allenden was an ace at using French libraries and archives for his research.)

 

post-489-0-19935900-1383756284.jpg

 

It needs some work to convert the Metric back to Imperial units, but already we can see the LSW "house style" for the chair casting.

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Hi Peter,

 

See also: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2354&forum_id=6

 

If you need to create track construction templates from the above data, it can all be entered into Templot as a custom template. Then it is easy to create curved versions of the turnouts and flowing pointwork. The company drawings always show turnouts from the straight, but in practice they are just as likely, or often more likely, to be inserted into a curved main.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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Hello Martin

 

Many thanks for your post (above), and apologies for the delay in replying (I have only just seen it). Also I am having computer trouble. I cannot get the "Reply quoting this post" to work as intended.

 

I have promised myself a self-tutorial on Templot for some time, but at heart I still have Luddite limitations when it comes to new and complicated!

 

I have given my S&C archive to the SWC, to ensure future safe keeping. I understand that the individual pages will get scanned and then made available to members through the Drawings Service) (another shameless plug for the Circle). Templot should be perfect for each the different patterns of switches and the separate patterns of crossings. There does not appear to have been a Waterloo Drawing Office pattern for the two when combined. I was given a practioner's notes for leads, and these made sense as far as I could tell, and applying these with spacings for the timbers, a pattern can be derived for each combination of switch and crossing. (The drawings give instructions on this). There may be a complication with the 1902 pattern which uses compound curves for the switch tongue rail. Although personally I doubt that this was ever practiced on-site.

 

I attempted my own drawings for the plain turnouts, but did not attempt to draw the slips. This will be a perfect new application for Templot.

 

PB

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AN APPEAL FOR HELP.

 

My particular interest is the Hull & Barnsley Railway, and I am in the process of building a Hull & Barnsley themed layout set around the 1908 period. I understand from what I have read that the LSWR and the HBR, both utilised Saxby & Farmer signalling equipment.

 

Whilst browsing this particular topic I was interested in the posting made by Peter Bedding on the 2nd November 2013 which shows copies of 'Waterloo drawings of Numbers 1 and 2 switches, 1908 pattern'. From what I can make out the stretcher bars appear to be of the same type employed by the H &BR, i.e the ends of the bars pass through the stock rails. I have been unable to locate any drawings of the stretcher bars used by the H&BR, but would be interested if anyone has drawings of the stretcher bars employed by the LSWR around 1908. If anyone could furnish me with drawings  or  indicate where I might access such information I would be most grateful and would willingly reimburse any costs incurred.

 

Davey

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AN APPEAL FOR HELP.

 

.............. If anyone could furnish me with drawings  or  indicate where I might access such information I would be most grateful and would willingly reimburse any costs incurred.

 

Davey

This site has a wealth of PW drawings.  Might be worth a look.  http://www.oldpway.info/ .

 

Jim

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Hi Jim, many thanks for the link to the old permanent way website of which I was aware. Unfortunately I can find no information relative to H&BR or LSWR stretcher bars.

 

Davey

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Hi Jim, many thanks for the link to the old permanent way website of which I was aware. Unfortunately I can find no information relative to H&BR or LSWR stretcher bars.

 

Davey

 

Hello chaps,

 

By sheer chance I have seen this thread today. The best I can offer for stretcher bars is the attached drawing.

 

post-489-0-65131300-1448212305.jpg

 

 

Hth

 

PB

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More haste less speed. I regret that my earlier post today repeated the drawing shown before. I had hoped to attach the one below.  

 

post-489-0-74137600-1448224425.jpg

 

 

This shows the subject in plan and elevation.

 

Hth

 

PB

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Many thanks Peter,

 

That's extremely useful and will be of immense help. Also thanks to anyone else who responded to my request for information.

 

Davey

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