Rapido Trains UK Release

[woodenhead]

I thought Dapol had got the deal to produce an exclusice class 68 model?

Yep, 68001

 

Hornby are doing 68002, Bachman 68003 and Heljan 68004.

[rapidotrains]

Distances like that depend on whether you are Canadian or British

 

When I lived in Brum we travelled to north Wales one day, Salisbury the next, and London the next. That was when my parents visited. Another time, with no special reason, we drove down to Cheddar Gorge in the morning and then back to Brum for a barbecue and then on to London.  Everything was so close! 

 

On this last trip, Dan and I had a meeting in Birmingham on the Friday morning.  I headed to Manchester to visit with friends and Dan, on a whim, headed to... Edinburgh. He just figured it looked like a nice place to visit.

 

Whenever my wife heads out of town I usually take the kids on a train trip.  Until they reduced the services in 2012, we would often head overnight to Gaspe, a mere 1500 km away.

 

Now that VIA services have been cut down to almost nothing, there really isn't anywhere we can go for a quick overnight trip there and back.  It must be nice to be able to take a Scotrail or Night Riviera sleeper whenever it takes your fancy.  They run every day!

 

-Jason

[BR60103]

Now that VIA services have been cut down to almost nothing, there really isn't anywhere we can go for a quick overnight trip there and back.  It must be nice to be able to take a Scotrail or Night Riviera sleeper whenever it takes your fancy.  They run every day!

 

-Jason

Try explaining to the Brits that many trains over here only run 3 times a week or 2 in the slow season.

[Stanley Melrose]

When I lived in Brum we travelled to north Wales one day, Salisbury the next, and London the next. That was when my parents visited. Another time, with no special reason, we drove down to Cheddar Gorge in the morning and then back to Brum for a barbecue and then on to London.  Everything was so close! 

 

On this last trip, Dan and I had a meeting in Birmingham on the Friday morning.  I headed to Manchester to visit with friends and Dan, on a whim, headed to... Edinburgh. He just figured it looked like a nice place to visit.

 

Whenever my wife heads out of town I usually take the kids on a train trip.  Until they reduced the services in 2012, we would often head overnight to Gaspe, a mere 1500 km away.U

 

Now that VIA services have been cut down to almost nothing, there really isn't anywhere we can go for a quick overnight trip there and back.  It must be nice to be able to take a Scotrail or Night Riviera sleeper whenever it takes your fancy.  They run every day!

 

-Jason

I'm reading this sitting in Coach 1 on train 51 from Ottawa to Toronto; we're nice and warm and enjoying the view form the window of the train with free WiFi and friendly on-board staff. The temperature in Ottawa was minus 37C including the wind-chill, there has been heavy snow but everything continues to function as if it was clear and warm,,,

 

Happy days!

 

Stan

[sub39h]

I think the APT would be exactly the sort of thing that Rapido would do. I would love to see them do it certainly, but it is probably too big as a first stab at the market.

 

AC electric locos would be nice instead. I would love a Class 87 or 90 to modern standards. (I would like a 91 too but again would be too big when you factor in carriages and DVT.)

 

Oddball choice: the Class 89?

 

They could perhaps supplement the above with an OHLE system similar to their telephone pole system which looks fantastic.

[newbryford]

I think the APT would be exactly the sort of thing that Rapido would do. I would love to see them do it certainly, but it is probably too big as a first stab at the market.

 

 

 

Not if it's the APT-E - four cars and IIRC only two shells to tool up.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Jack]

When I lived in Brum we travelled to north Wales one day, Salisbury the next, and London the next. That was when my parents visited. Another time, with no special reason, we drove down to Cheddar Gorge in the morning and then back to Brum for a barbecue and then on to London.  Everything was so close! 

 

On this last trip, Dan and I had a meeting in Birmingham on the Friday morning.  I headed to Manchester to visit with friends and Dan, on a whim, headed to... Edinburgh. He just figured it looked like a nice place to visit.

 

Whenever my wife heads out of town I usually take the kids on a train trip.  Until they reduced the services in 2012, we would often head overnight to Gaspe, a mere 1500 km away.

 

Now that VIA services have been cut down to almost nothing, there really isn't anywhere we can go for a quick overnight trip there and back.  It must be nice to be able to take a Scotrail or Night Riviera sleeper whenever it takes your fancy.  They run every day!

 

-Jason

 

Try taking a SouthEastern service from Canterbury to London ... its only 50 miles, but feels like 1500 ... the carriages really are that uncomfortable.  And only 1 in 3 seats gives you a window view.

 

... and from what I remember of north american train travel the cost is roughly the same as well

 

The only plus side is the service runs every half an hour and you only have to endure it for an hour or so.

[sub39h]

Not if it's the APT-E - four cars and IIRC only two shells to tool up.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

nowhere near as good looking tho imho

[dibber25]

This is not in any way a criticism of the Rapido model. It's beautiful and I'm well pleased with it. It cost, off the shelf the C$ equivalent of £70. By the time you add postage, VAT and ParcelForce charge, it's a £100 coach. It was a limited edition model for VIA Rail, so will be somewhat more expensive than the standard range version. It's a dining car. According to Rapido it contains about 200 parts. I haven't counted them all but I reckon ten parts in the gangway connection (diaphragm) and around 40 parts in the interior. It represents Emerald, which was one of two diners on the Canadian when I travelled in 2011.

The second photo shows the real Emerald - at 56 years old, a vehicle which has been refurbed on more than one occasion. Note the series of replacement panels on the flat section backing the kitchen. Emerald has four replacement panels which show clearly, plus a fifth to the left of the door. The model depicts this area pristine - with no sign of repairs (or are they plated-over windows, perhaps?). The one on the extreme left may be the mark left by removal of the beaver/shield crest which was a feature of the original Canadian Pacific livery. This is certainly plainly visible on some cars.

The question I'm asking - as much for Rapido's benefit as anything else - is "would the British modeller expect the model to be presented 'warts and all' or would the pristine finish be OK?" Or, indeed, would the British modeller expect two versions to be offered? Bear in mind that this model does have the 'etched glass' Kingfisher screens in the dining section - specific to Emerald, despite the fact that they are all but impossible to see from outside the car -particularly as the blinds are down in most of the windows. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[Gerald Henriksen]

Jason obviously would be the expert, but I can offer this.

 

Before I left the CanModelTrains email list I seem to recall Jason was clear that the Canadian Budd equipment was being produced for the pre-HEP period, and that it was unlikely to ever be updated for the HEP version - in a large part I would guess because there simply is not enough sales to justify the tooling costs given how few people model North American passenger operations.

 

Your picture is obviously post-HEP because of the Canadian flag on side of the prototyple.

 

A quick look online reveals a couple of pictures of those dining cars in CP times (late 70s) and you can see that sides even then aren't perfectly smooth - http://jmlaboda.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1814099 and http://jmlaboda.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1814104

 - though (at least the CP ones) don't look like repairs as such but rather reflect hollow areas in the shell of the car where the (relatively) thin outside stainless has bowed in slightly.  This of course is not unique to the diners, very few freight cars or diesels in North America are as perfect as the models even when new as the outside metal isn't perfect in covering the frame.

 

As for the UK market, only Jason knows what he has planned and it will be unveiled in due course.  But despite the differences in sizes of the overall markets, it would be a very safe guess that there are significantly more passenger modelers in the UK than in North America, and that in turn changes what is financially feasible in the model design phase.

 

 

[dibber25]

This is the crux of the matter. The North American market will accept - and even be thrilled with - what are in effect steam-heat era cars in electric train heat era livery. I have real doubts that that would be acceptable to some - perhaps most - UK modellers who are able and willing to fork out for something of this calibre. For instance, a Bachmann 4CEP in jaffa cake livery without retooling? 

CHRIS LEIGH

[Legend]

This is the crux of the matter. The North American market will accept - and even be thrilled with - what are in effect steam-heat era cars in electric train heat era livery. I have real doubts that that would be acceptable to some - perhaps most - UK modellers who are able and willing to fork out for something of this calibre. For instance, a Bachmann 4CEP in jaffa cake livery without retooling?

CHRIS LEIGH

They forked out for a Strathclyde Bachmann 108 that really should have been a 107. But I take your point at £70-£100 a coach uk modellers will expect perfection.

[Gerald Henriksen]

This is the crux of the matter. The North American market will accept - and even be thrilled with - what are in effect steam-heat era cars in electric train heat era livery. I have real doubts that that would be acceptable to some - perhaps most - UK modellers who are able and willing to fork out for something of this calibre. For instance, a Bachmann 4CEP in jaffa cake livery without retooling? 

CHRIS LEIGH

 

First, given that Rapido has yet to announce any details at all of what they will be doing for the UK market I think it is very unfair to Jason to continually make assumptions about what will be done in terms of price or specifics for the UK model.

 

As I have said in the past, the UK and North American markets are very different, and that in turn dramatically changes the equation in terms of what can and can't be done to a model and the price point based simply on the number of the models that can be expected to sell.

 

The Canadian was able to be produced in its steam heated form because it could be offered in 4 paint schemes - CP Block, CP Script, CP Pacman and VIA covering a 30 plus year period, plus the US road names for the individual cars that are close or better than nothing.

 

The modern Canadian however is very unique, in that there are no foobie options - Amtrak replaced all what they called heritage equipment with new equipment - so the costs of tooling an accurate modern Canadian will fall entirely on those who want the modern Canadian.  Problem is, the market for such a model probably doesn't even reach 3 digits.

 

Contrast that market with the UK, which has a very heavy passenger emphasis, which makes the economics entirely different.

[dibber25]

They forked out for a Strathclyde Bachmann 108 that really should have been a 107. But I take your point at £70-£100 a coach uk modellers will expect perfection.

That's true, they did, and it was in part a Model Rail project (shared with Harburn Hobbies). 

[dibber25]

First, given that Rapido has yet to announce any details at all of what they will be doing for the UK market I think it is very unfair to Jason to continually make assumptions about what will be done in terms of price or specifics for the UK model.

 

I apologise. I did not intend any injustice towards Rapido or Jason. Far from it. I don't have any information about price or specifics of the proposed model and I wasn't aware I had suggested anything beyond what is already known. I will shut up and go away.

CHRIS LEIGH

[railroadbill]

Just because I recently looked at some old Kodachromes and scanned several, I coincidentally have these two shots to hand.  They are both of The Canadian in September 1974. The dome car is at Thunder Bay, Ontario. The other shot is, well, somewhere in the praries.  Liked the pic of Chris's Canadian layout and the very nice Rapido model.  But sadly I  don't have the room for another layout.......

[Gerald Henriksen]

I apologise. I did not intend any injustice towards Rapido or Jason. Far from it. I don't have any information about price or specifics of the proposed model and I wasn't aware I had suggested anything beyond what is already known. I will shut up and go away.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

I am sorry that you have taken my posting in such a negative way, I certainly wasn't in any way trying to suggest that you stop posting.

 

Nor did I mean to suggest that you had any knowledge of what Rapido plans.

 

You are though, in my opinion though and admittedly unintentionally, making it as though Rapido passenger coaches are really expensive and cost £100 (see message 88) which they most certainly do not.

 

But as I posted in the other thread when you brought up those prices, they are a) incorrect and b) not relevant to the question of a UK model.

 

The current exchange rate is £1 = C$1.75, which means it is a £60 model, not £70, with no taxes.

 

While it is fair to add VAT to your price (given that UK prices include VAT), that brings it to a £72 model.

 

Including the other costs is not relevant (and to me misleading) when discussing the upcoming UK model because they will not be applicable, and nobody includes those fees when talking about Hornby or Bachmann models.  Those additional costs are part of the price of buying international models.

 

Now if you want to say would UK modelers accept those limitation on a £70 model that would certainly be a closer comparison.

 

But it also then brings up to the point I have been trying to make, perhaps without being clear, in that the limitations Rapido needs to work around in size of market for Canadian prototype passenger equipment are very different than the size of the UK market, and that is what determines what is possible both in features and the price that needs to be set.

 

Go and look at the number of models of steam engines that are available in the UK market, most if not all accurate to the prototype.

 

Now look at how many steam engine models are available of Canadian prototypes - easy, its zero.

 

Despite the fact that the transition era is the most popular modeling period in North America, there has only been 1 accurate plastic model of a Canadian prototype produced, and at a production run of 1000 units it struggled to sell (in part because of some production issues that were worked out).  No one has been in a hurry to try again so far.

 

Canada and/or North America are a very different market than the UK, and thus what is economically possible to do in a model are very different.  

[dibber25]

I am sorry that you have taken my posting in such a negative way, I certainly wasn't in any way trying to suggest that you stop posting.

 

Nor did I mean to suggest that you had any knowledge of what Rapido plans.

 

You are though, in my opinion though and admittedly unintentionally, making it as though Rapido passenger coaches are really expensive and cost £100 (see message 88) which they most certainly do not.

 

But as I posted in the other thread when you brought up those prices, they are a) incorrect and B) not relevant to the question of a UK model.

 

The current exchange rate is £1 = C$1.75, which means it is a £60 model, not £70, with no taxes.

 

While it is fair to add VAT to your price (given that UK prices include VAT), that brings it to a £72 model.

 

Including the other costs is not relevant (and to me misleading) when discussing the upcoming UK model because they will not be applicable, and nobody includes those fees when talking about Hornby or Bachmann models.  Those additional costs are part of the price of buying international models.

 

Now if you want to say would UK modelers accept those limitation on a £70 model that would certainly be a closer comparison.

 

But it also then brings up to the point I have been trying to make, perhaps without being clear, in that the limitations Rapido needs to work around in size of market for Canadian prototype passenger equipment are very different than the size of the UK market, and that is what determines what is possible both in features and the price that needs to be set.

 

Go and look at the number of models of steam engines that are available in the UK market, most if not all accurate to the prototype.

 

Now look at how many steam engine models are available of Canadian prototypes - easy, its zero.

 

Despite the fact that the transition era is the most popular modeling period in North America, there has only been 1 accurate plastic model of a Canadian prototype produced, and at a production run of 1000 units it struggled to sell (in part because of some production issues that were worked out).  No one has been in a hurry to try again so far.

 

Canada and/or North America are a very different market than the UK, and thus what is economically possible to do in a model are very different.  

I'm guessing you're in Canada, not the UK. My comments were aimed at getting some reaction from the British modern image market to the question of what, if any, compromises might be acceptable on a premium-priced model. The British market is certainly bigger than that in Canada and the potential for more flexibility in toolmaking is there. So is the potential to suffer serious commercial damage if, for some reason, the market doesn't buy what you produce.

I presume your exchange rates are based on what you can get in Canada. I can assure you that my figures are NOT incorrect. They are made up as follows: £159.56 two cars plus postage from VIA Rail (Credit card charge - no interest charged) Import VAT £32.45 + £13.50 Parcelforce clearance charge. My calculator makes that £205.51 for the two cars or just over £100 each. I appreciate that products made for this country would not incur some of those charges but we would still be looking at coaches costing quite a bit more than even the top-end RTR British-outline plastic coaches cost at present. There is therefore, in my view, a legitimate question as to what British modellers would expect to get for that money.

I would add that I've given the information on this posting merely to correct any impression that I might be in error  and not to prolong the topic, having said that I would withdraw.

I emphasise again that I'm very happy with the models, I'm happy with the price I paid and I'm happy to have supported VIA Rail, something which I know is close to Jason's heart.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Gerald Henriksen]

I'm guessing you're in Canada, not the UK.

Correct, Mississauga (just west of Toronto).

 

My comments were aimed at getting some reaction from the British modern image market to the question of what, if any, compromises might be acceptable on a premium-priced model. The British market is certainly bigger than that in Canada and the potential for more flexibility in toolmaking is there. So is the potential to suffer serious commercial damage if, for some reason, the market doesn't buy what you produce.

I fully support the idea of trying to get a dialog on what the British market expects/hopes to get from Rapido, but (in my opinion) in order to get a valid conversation going you need to be basing it on correct numbers.  There is a big difference between a £72 model and a £100 model, and the expectations will change accordingly.

 

I presume your exchange rates are based on what you can get in Canada.

I am using the official Bank of Canada exchange rate, available at http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/exchange/daily-converter/

 

Obviously this will differ from what any given credit card will charge as they collect fees on currency conversion, but this is better as it removes those variables.

 

I can assure you that my figures are NOT incorrect. They are made up as follows: £159.56 two cars plus postage from VIA Rail (Credit card charge - no interest charged) Import VAT £32.45 + £13.50 Parcelforce clearance charge. My calculator makes that £205.51 for the two cars or just over £100 each.

So if I lived in the UK and had bought those cars from VIA, would I then be justified going onto a North American model railway forum and complaining about inaccuracies in a C$180 model? (£102.50 converted to C$)  Wouldn't I rightly be corrected that it was really a $100 model?

 

I am not trying to say the credit card, shipping, etc fees are nothing, because they certainly are.  But they are unique to the fact that you are importing the model from another country and are costs that do not apply to most buyers.

 

I appreciate that products made for this country would not incur some of those charges but we would still be looking at coaches costing quite a bit more than even the top-end RTR British-outline plastic coaches cost at present. There is therefore, in my view, a legitimate question as to what British modellers would expect to get for that money.

Do I suspect there will be a price premium?  Yes, though larger production runs based on a larger market may help with that.

 

But that is not the same thing as saying they will cost over 3 times as much (based on the £30 estimated price of the Hornby Mk2E with lights) that you unintentionally are seeming to imply.

 

The best we can get at the moment is this.  Bachmann DMU's (class 105/108) have list prices of £115 - I deliberately ignored the class 101 because I want an older price - compared to Realtrack class 144 at £135.

 

I wanted an older price because the Realtrack price is also somewhat older, the Realtrack model is along the lines of what Rapido does and made in the same factory.

 

Now I am not saying that is the sort of price difference Rapido will have, but it is about as accurate as your price guess that includes extra costs.

 

[adding on edit]

 

My opinion is for the type of discussion Chris would like to see happen a guess of £75 would be reasonable ball park number, being based on the current list price of the Rapido models.

 

[frobisher]

The current exchange rate is £1 = C$1.75, which means it is a £60 model, not £70, with no taxes.

 

While it is fair to add VAT to your price (given that UK prices include VAT), that brings it to a £72 model.

Erm, if you feel VAT is fair to include, then you must also include all the associated customs charges. This is the only way VAT will be applied to a commodity that is not normally sold in the UK.

 

 

Including the other costs is not relevant (and to me misleading) when discussing the upcoming UK model because they will not be applicable, and nobody includes those fees when talking about Hornby or Bachmann models. Those additional costs are part of the price of buying international models.

If Rapido will be supplying direct from Canada, then there will be import duty payable and that will inflate the price relative to the Canadian price. It will not be at the same level as those applied for a personal import, but it will be there, and the end result is that the UK price will be higher than the Canadian price.

 

However, from everything I've seen so far about Rapido, I suspect that supplying the model primarily to the UK market, arrangements will have been/will be being made with a UK partner to import directly from China rather than going via Canada, and the normal inspection being done on UK soil to reduce the shipping and customs overheads. Prices may then be comparable allowing for the difference in sales tax rates.

[69843]

I'm going to throw this out there:

Penydarren

[Gerald Henriksen]

Erm, if you feel VAT is fair to include, then you must also include all the associated customs charges. This is the only way VAT will be applied to a commodity that is not normally sold in the UK.

The point of the discussion was to discuss the expectations British modelers would have for a model the price level Rapido charges for the type of model they offer.  Without an announcement from Rapido, some assumptions have to be made as to what that price will be.

 

It seems fair enough for a start to use the latest pricing for a current Rapido product as a rough starting point, and as all UK model prices include VAT in their list prices one needs to add VAT to the price of the Rapido model to make a comparison between Rapido/Hornby/Bachmann meaningful.

 

The other charges are irrelevant because UK purchasers of the Rapido UK product will not be importing it from Canada, so will not face those costs.

 

 

If Rapido will be supplying direct from Canada, then there will be import duty payable and that will inflate the price relative to the Canadian price. It will not be at the same level as those applied for a personal import, but it will be there, and the end result is that the UK price will be higher than the Canadian price.

As posted elsewhere (I think on the topic that introduced the video interview) Jason was asked during his visit about this issue and he confirmed that the model(s) would be distributed from within the UK, details to follow.

[Gerald Henriksen]

Among the products Rapido has announced this year are the following, all C$ prices are without taxes, the UK equivalent includes VAT for easier comparison with current UK suppliers:

 

Diesel Locomotives (FPA-4, GMD-1) - $225 /  £155 - or with DCC Sound - $325 /  £223

 

CC&F Coach (non-stainless) - $85 /  £56

 

Budd Coach (stainless steel) - $100 /  £70

 

Gondola - $45 /  £31

 

People may in particular want to compare the Diesel prices with the latest Hornby announcement ...

[frobisher]

The other charges are irrelevant because UK purchasers of the Rapido UK product will not be importing it from Canada, so will not face those costs.

 

As posted elsewhere (I think on the topic that introduced the video interview) Jason was asked during his visit about this issue and he confirmed that the model(s) would be distributed from within the UK, details to follow.

Until the "details to follow" confirm that the models aren't being re-exported from Canada to be distributed in the UK, we can only assume that there will be a shipping and import duty premium over and above the equivalent Canadian price (and as I said, Rapido are pretty clued up so I expect this to be done in the most cost efficient manner). So Chris' point of comparison remains valid until we have better data.

 

At the moment we don't know what prototype we're getting a model of, let alone what its cost would be.

[ThaneofFife]

The point of the discussion was to discuss the expectations British modelers would have for a model the price level Rapido charges for the type of model they offer.  Without an announcement from Rapido, some assumptions have to be made as to what that price will be.

 

Now this has my interest....... 

 

Surely those expectations would be right at the top end of what is currently possible (within current top end Rapido price structures albeit for the NA market not the UK) so using that logic we dont really have the basis for any further discussion do we? 

 

OK, so if its a £70-£100 coach at UK prices then we get to own THE best looking highly detailed authentic coach available - close couplings, working gangway diaphragms, brake blocks in line with wheels or brake discs visible, inter-coach pipework, tinted flush glazing, detailed and illuminated interiors etc.

 

Anything less than that (at the aforementioned Rapido price points) and youre back to the point I was trying to get across (but many chose to reach for their smooth and worn out pedantry sticks to hit me with as if I was some kind of cheapskate) in the main Rapido thread about my thoughts of building a new UK model to a price.

 

Many, despite publicly suggesting otherwise wont admit to it, but I think most of us like to spend as little as possible or in other words = get the best value for money and not have to pay for what is not seen.  Am I alone thinking that the expectations do not include detail that would never be seen on the model when on 99% of UK layouts. 

 

Those lovely etches glass partitions found in the top draw Rapido coaches apparently arent easy to see in normal viewing (not helped by most of the window blinds pulled down to different heights) - UK modellers are a fickle bunch and although there are bound to be a few saying throw everything at the model now, i can hear those same high volume commentators in the not too distant future bemoaning the price when said model hits the shops, whether that be discounted or RRP.  No doubt a fresh approach to their change of hearts will be dug up from somewhere to justify what they said before and after the model appeared.

 

I think its been mentioned that a UK distributed coach based on NA coaches would be circa £60-70.  For that I cant see UK modellers accepting any compromises whatsoever (apart from maybe the problems associated with scale inter-coach pipework and sockets).  The model would have to be perfection and that would be even more important if such a model was limited to 1,000 or 5,000 units or  train "packs".

 

I know RT's raison detre is detail, detail, detail but lets say they dropped down just a touch and lose some of the highly intricate detail people will never see and then you can bring the cost into the hands of a wider audience.  Those intricate parts could in fact be included in a pack inside the box for the few modellers to fit themselves that do want every single widget, valve and pipe underneath their models.  The labour cost saved by removing even as few as say 10 or 20 separate parts must have a significant effect on the final price........would RT lose any face in doing this or would their brand suffer because of it or would that quickly be forgotten by the thousands of happy customers whose budgets allow them to become part of the RT ownership experience rather than it being reserved for the fortunate few who will gladly pay £1,000 for 10 coaches that have the toilet valve replicated underneath? 

 

Lots of talk about passenger carriages so I have chosen to stick with that for the purposes of my comments although we might end up with a Tamper or a 4mm working escalator!

 

Oh yes it fun alright second guessing our lot