Prototype for everything corner.

[PatB]

On 07/11/2020 at 11:28, DavidB-AU said:

 

Deltics were certainly hauling Mk 3s on occasions by around 1979 but it didn't seem to be common.

 

 

Deltics hauled a couple of excursions to Oban in 1981 using one of the spare push-pull sets.

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/21_2-8-81.htm

 

Cheers

David

Given the date on that photo, I'd assume that ETH wouldn't be a major consideration, even in Western Scotland.

[DY444]

On 06/11/2020 at 22:27, rodent279 said:

I thought Peaks and 31's couldn't supply power to mk3's?

 

Both could.

[DY444]

On 06/11/2020 at 23:57, RP82 said:

I've read in the past that Deltics can't provide ETH to mk3s

 

No deltics were fine with Mk3s.  It was Mk2e where there were restrictions.

[RP82]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

No deltics were fine with Mk3s.  It was Mk2e where there were restrictions.

Ah thanks for the info. I remember there was problems with D9000 during Virgin XC days. Were 33s barred from providing ETH to mk3?

[DY444]

13 minutes ago, RP82 said:

Ah thanks for the info. I remember there was problems with D9000 during Virgin XC days. Were 33s barred from providing ETH to mk3?

 

Yes.

[russ p]

55 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Yes.

What was the issue with 33 ETH . I've been told in the past that although deltics can supply ETH to mk3s the coaches MAs weren't too keen on it 

[DY444]

50 minutes ago, russ p said:

What was the issue with 33 ETH . I've been told in the past that although deltics can supply ETH to mk3s the coaches MAs weren't too keen on it 

 

I'm not sure of the precise reason but 33s were officially banned from supplying eth to any AC stock*.  Probably a combination of the eth generator only being 800V/250kW and the eth supply being temporarily interrupted every time the power controller was opened which some MAs didn't like. 

 

*That doesn't mean it never happened, just that it was never supposed to.

[russ p]

6 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I'm not sure of the precise reason but 33s were officially banned from supplying eth to any AC stock*.  Probably a combination of the eth generator only being 800V/250kW and the eth supply being temporarily interrupted every time the power controller was opened which some MAs didn't like. 

 

*That doesn't mean it never happened, just that it was never supposed to.

 

Don't detics also interrupt train supply under certain conditions.  I worked a charter with one a few years back and there was a 68 for ETH 

[DY444]

51 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Don't detics also interrupt train supply under certain conditions.  I worked a charter with one a few years back and there was a 68 for ETH 

 

I think with the deltics the main problem was voltage fluctuations due to the eth supply coming from the main generators.

[russ p]

14 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I think with the deltics the main problem was voltage fluctuations due to the eth supply coming from the main generators.

 

There was a 40 in the 60s and I believe a 37 in the early 80s that had experimental ETH systems i think they also came off the main gen

[pheaton]

On 06/11/2020 at 23:57, RP82 said:

I've read in the past that Deltics can't provide ETH to mk3s

Quote

I thought Peaks and 31's couldn't supply power to mk3's?

 

Peaks (45/1s) and class 31s (31/4) have an ETH index of 66, which like class 47s is the highest eth rating of the classic BR diesels, a peak and a class 31 can easily supply enough power for at least 10 mk3s.

 

Mk3 TSOs and FOs have an ETS ratings of 6, Sleepers have an ETS rating of 7,  and buffets have an ETS rating of 14.... any combination of those up to 66 and that's what you can plug into a peak or a ped....of course with the ped actually getting it to move is another matter

 

class 31/4s 45/1s 47s share exactly the same ETH alternator

 

45/1s also idle at 280rpm to maintain ETH supply when at idle

 

It was certain mk2 aircons ISTR E and F, and mk3s that deltics had an issue supplying as they use motor generator sets, and the ETH voltage was too low at the deltics idle speed, which meant they were unable to run until the engine reached a certain RPM (so no good for station stops) classic Mk2s and Mk1s were just straight heaters so had no problem.

 

regarding 33s...being a southern region unit they were only supposed to supply units..which run on 800v...you could get away with it on mk1s and classic mk2s....but when you get to aircons...as already rightly mentioned....the MG/MAs in the carriages didnt like it too much and it tended to trip them out... 33s like deltics dont have traditional ETS generators/alternators...it comes from a winding on the main generator...33s have a separate AVR for ETS, and its very slow to react to engine speed which is why they didn't get on with aircons.

Edited November 8, 2020 by pheaton

[keefer]

IIRC the cl.33 ETH index was only 48 and as was mentioned before, if full traction power was needed, the ETH cut out. I remember reading about this with the trains of mk1s to Wales(?) - 8 coaches was the usual limit but if there were 9 on, the locos needed all the power they had, so there would be no heating for the coaches.

 

[melmerby]

Is there a correlation between ETH indices and kW of available heating power?

[pheaton]

 

 

42 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Is there a correlation between ETH indices and kW of available heating power?

 

Im not sure if there is a direct correlation, id have to check in 45149s ETH manual. Its possible but what skews it in the case of the 33s 31s, and 45s and 47s is that the ETH Alternator/generator also supplies the auxiliary circuits and machines....so whilst ETH might be measured as 66kw the actual capabilities of the alternator will be closer to 100kw to take into account the extra load for the locomotives onboard machinery.

Edited November 9, 2020 by pheaton

[Flying Pig]

Want a working level crossing, but stuck with a road running into the backscene?  No problem - a couple of security fences will hide the join.

 

 

[RLBH]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Is there a correlation between ETH indices and kW of available heating power?

Very roughly, an ETH index of 1 corresponds to 5 kW, but it's not necessarily a 1:1 relationship.

[lmsforever]

Now thats the way to stop people jumping the lights ,where is it the gates have locks on them so someone has access.

[SP Steve]

Only the one Class 20? Then feel free to run nose end leading on passenger duties!

 

 

 

Class 20 No 20.212 seen arriving at Wigan Wallgate with a Southport - Manchester Victoria DMU substitute working on 28th August 1984.

 

 

 

Happy days........

Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve

[45125]

7 hours ago, pheaton said:

 

 

 

Im not sure if there is a direct correlation, id have to check in 45149s ETH manual. Its possible but what skews it in the case of the 33s 31s, and 45s and 47s is that the ETH Alternator/generator also supplies the auxiliary circuits and machines....so whilst ETH might be measured as 66kw the actual capabilities of the alternator will be closer to 100kw to take into account the extra load for the locomotives onboard machinery.

The Brush BL100 alternator is a pretty robust machine as on the Inverness based 47/6 the ETH was upgraded to 95, with a the top speed been dropped to 75mph to take into account the extra load on the Sulzer power unit, all these loco had the overloads up graded. A 33 has other problems when working A/C stock in respect of the earth return.

 

[russ p]

Does anyone have any further information on the 40 and 37/0 that were fitted with ETH?

Were any other prototype fitments? 

[pheaton]

8 minutes ago, russ p said:

Does anyone have any further information on the 40 and 37/0 that were fitted with ETH?

Were any other prototype fitments? 

D255 was the 40 fitted

not aware of a 37/0 being done, the 37/4s were a very extensive refurbishment. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by pheaton

[SP Steve]

1 hour ago, pheaton said:

 

D255 was the 40 fitted

 

 

Shortly after entering traffic from new in 1960 D255 was given an auxiliary generator in addition to a steam heat boiler so dual heat capability. It undertook trials between Crewe and Carlisle in March 1960 and after the evaluation finished, the additional equipment was removed although I seem to recall the buffer beam(s) sported some sort of tell tale of having extra equipment fitted.

[pheaton]

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/img/s/v-10/p217728880-4.jpg

 

there is a picture of it with the niphan connector and socket, but theres no evidence of it that I can see in later years

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by pheaton

[IamDaniel]

Want to run double-headed steam, a support coach and a single Mk3? No problemo.

 

 

(not my video)

 

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, pheaton said:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/img/s/v-10/p217728880-4.jpg

 

there is a picture of it with the niphan connector and socket, but theres no evidence of it that I can see in later years

 

 

And here's another, still with ETH kit fitted, at least, the jumpers are still there.

shared a photo with you from the Flickr app. Check it out:
https://flic.kr/p/2jjADtM