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1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think you'll find that those late kettles Bulleid & Thompson/Peppercorn steam locomotives were used on lines where headcode DISCS were commonplace .......... the lamps fitted were so feeble - in todays thinking - that something extra had to be done to make them visible in daylight.

Some of the later Black 5s also had them, such as preserved (4)4767. Did the LMS/LMR use discs?

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Some of the later Black 5s also had them, such as preserved (4)4767. Did the LMS/LMR use discs?


44767 did not have them while still in BR service. Here’s a picture of it in November 1967:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/44767-backing-onto-carlisle-kingmoor-shed-november-1967.jpg

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They were removed by BR, I'm sure she and the other Fives still had them in 1948 and for quite a while after. The last two Pacifics, 6256 and 6257 also got them but had them removed long before the end.

 

I don't think the turbo-generator system was too reliable and, as ever, maintenance costs were deemed excessive. Since, when the generator failed, they had to run with oil headlamps at night anyway, why not provide them during daylight too?

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2 hours ago, blackpete said:

KWVR Mixed Traffic Gala 5th May 2019. S160 5820 & 41001.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/73574431@N06/47799307221/in/album-72157691321170783/

IMG_9732.JPG


Surely one of the strangest combinations ever featured on this thread?

There’s something about the photo that looks right even though I know it isn’t in any way whatsoever!

 

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10 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I don't think the turbo-generator system was too reliable and, as ever, maintenance costs were deemed excessive. 

I am sure that I read that there was also a demarcation problem: electrical equipment could not be serviced by mechanical fitters. I wonder how many steam sheds had a large contingent of electrical fitters? 

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7 hours ago, Cowley 47521 said:


Surely one of the strangest combinations ever featured on this thread?

There’s something about the photo that looks right even though I know it isn’t in any way whatsoever!

 

A kettle, oops sorry, steam loco getting pushed by a diesel.....yes seems about right!

:jester:

(I suppose the S160 is one of the few steam locos that are authentically AB.

Had BR taken on a few, and had steam lasted another decade, it could well have happened in real life)

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22 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

 

I don't think the turbo-generator system was too reliable and, as ever, maintenance costs were deemed excessive. Since, when the generator failed, they had to run with oil headlamps at night anyway, why not provide them during daylight too?

Didn't seem to be a problem in the USA with electric lights on steam locos.

Why not just a wheel driven dynamo to a regulator & battery like on road vehicles?

They seemed to be pretty reliable.

On 02/10/2021 at 17:03, Wickham Green too said:

. the lamps fitted were so feeble - in todays thinking - that something extra had to be done to make them visible in daylight.

See above, IIRC road vehicles at that time had 36-48W head lights that worked pretty well.

 

12 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

I am sure that I read that there was also a demarcation problem: electrical equipment could not be serviced by mechanical fitters. I wonder how many steam sheds had a large contingent of electrical fitters? 

 

That sounds plausible.

 

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7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Didn't seem to be a problem in the USA with electric lights on steam locos.

Why not just a wheel driven dynamo to a regulator & battery like on road vehicles?

They seemed to be pretty reliable.

Whatever the situation across the Pond, that's how they were powered over here: steam turbo. A wheel driven generator might have worked better; perhaps you could nip back eighty years to tell them! Of course, it would also need a battery.

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10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

... I suppose the S160 is one of the few steam locos that are authentically AB. Had BR taken on a few,  ...

Don't forget BR did take on rather more than a few W.D. 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s, every one of which at least started out with Westinghouse brakes ............ and then there were a number of 'Great Eastern' and 'Brighton' locos still fitted ........ maybe even a few in Scotland.

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23 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Whatever the situation across the Pond, that's how they were powered over here: steam turbo. A wheel driven generator might have worked better; perhaps you could nip back eighty years to tell them! Of course, it would also need a battery.

Didn't some of the B1s get wheel - mounted generators?

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1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Didn't some of the B1s get wheel - mounted generators?

 

Yes, Metropolitan-Vickers generators. The Vulcan Foundry batch of B1s, 1140-1189, and some others had them.  See for example the photo of 1165 in Mike Megginson's thread on here:

Apparently they didn't always stay attached. They certainly weren't long-lived - out of use by 1951 or so.

 

 

Simon

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15 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

I am sure that I read that there was also a demarcation problem: electrical equipment could not be serviced by mechanical fitters. I wonder how many steam sheds had a large contingent of electrical fitters? 

Several depots relied on the ODM electricians for servicing the lighting along with the AWS batteries.

 

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21 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Whatever the situation across the Pond, that's how they were powered over here: steam turbo. A wheel driven generator might have worked better; perhaps you could nip back eighty years to tell them! Of course, it would also need a battery.

Did the steam turbo run all the time at a constant speed?

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That's going beyond my knowledge but I would assume it did. At night, the lamps would have to be lit even when the engine was standing still, and as far as I know, there wasn't a battery. Batteries came with AWS contained in quite a large box, but the box and, presumably the battery, wasn't there with the electric lights.

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32 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Did the steam turbo run all the time at a constant speed?

Most were DC machines (turbogenerators rather than turboalternators) and produced the required voltage at a particular speed.

They had a mechanical governor and steam regulator to limit the speed to the rated speed, so that if the current draw increased the steam supply would be automatically increased to maintain the required rpm and voltage.

Batteries were not generally used back in those days, as far as I know. So the turbogenerator was turned on whenever lights were required.

They had a reputation for being quite thirsty, and in many cases were probably over-rated for the power required. Separate oil lamps were almost certainly more efficient!

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Hi Folks,

 

Mol_PMB is quite right in that the turbo generators are indeed thirsty for steam for what little electricity the lamps used. I can also say that there was no battery back up should the generator stall for any reason. I had experience of the turbo generator on Tangemere and if a lot of the marker along with the cab lights were turned on then the generator would start to labour. The lights over the driving wheels were good for oiling up in the dark though.

 

As for AWS batteries were only for providing the power for the electrical signals from the read switch in the magnet sensor, the cancellation button, the sunflower solenoids, and actuating the solenoids that put the brakes on in the event of a missed cancellation. They were not connected to any lighting systems.

 

Gibbo.

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On 22/09/2021 at 17:54, melmerby said:

Quote from Wiki:

"The early conversions tapped off the main generator such that none of the ETH power was available for traction even if the ETH was not being used. The traction power output of some of the 31/4 subclass was therefore limited to a maximum of two-thirds of that of the non-ETH variants, this did not help the performance of an already somewhat underpowered locomotive"

 

On 22/09/2021 at 20:03, DY444 said:

 

Ah the joys of Wikipedia.  I'm afraid that is a complete load of nonsense. 

 

The eth was not taken from the main generator on any of the 31/4s; all of them had Brush dual wound alternators to supply the eth and auxiliaries as indeed did most BR diesel classes not built with eth and subsequently converted. 

 

That renders the rest of it irrelevant but in any event it is total drivel as the reduction in traction power in such a scenario would not be fixed and permanent; it would depend entirely on the heating load.

 

On 22/09/2021 at 21:23, Jeremy C said:

There is the question of 31400, though.

 

31401-31424 were converted in the early 70s, about a decade before 31425-31469 were converted. When 31401 was withdrawn following collision damage in 1988, its electrical equipment was used to convert 31161. Instead of being given the next available 31/4 number (which would have been 31470), it was numbered 31400 instead, apparently to keep similarly-fitted 31/4s in a contiguous number sequence.

 

31400 is certainly an odd number to give the loco (were any other 00 numbers used for classes or sub-classes?). If all the 31/4s were substantially the same, then why do it?

 

 

On 22/09/2021 at 21:30, DY444 said:

 

Whatever the reason it wasn't related to the basic source of the train supply power because it came from a Brush alternator on all of them.

 

Just to finally put this to bed. 

 

I've looked up the driver's fault manual for class 31 (BR 33056/41 Issue 3) which states that ALL 31/4s have the 3 phase alternator for eth and auxiliaries (surprise surprise) and that there are indeed differences between 31401-31424 and 31425 onwards but those differences relate to the eth control cubicle and some of the eth fault indications.  There are separate eth/auxiliary fault finding procedures defined for the two series because of the differences. 

 

So wrt 31161, if that inherited the eth control cubicle from an early series conversion it makes sense that its new number would be grouped with that early series rather than being tacked onto the end of the later series which has a different cubicle type.

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On 04/10/2021 at 17:57, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Folks,

 

Mol_PMB is quite right in that the turbo generators are indeed thirsty for steam for what little electricity the lamps used. I can also say that there was no battery back up should the generator stall for any reason. I had experience of the turbo generator on Tangemere and if a lot of the marker along with the cab lights were turned on then the generator would start to labour. The lights over the driving wheels were good for oiling up in the dark though.

 

As for AWS batteries were only for providing the power for the electrical signals from the read switch in the magnet sensor, the cancellation button, the sunflower solenoids, and actuating the solenoids that put the brakes on in the event of a missed cancellation. They were not connected to any lighting systems.

 

Gibbo.

It's only just occurred to me, but how were the AWS batteries charged?

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19 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

It's only just occurred to me, but how were the AWS batteries charged?

Hi Mel,

 

There was charging equipment set up in the depot and the batteries were exchanged at regular intervals.

 

Gibbo.

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