Minories Holborn viaduct

[bigdaveadams1]

For a while I've toyed with the idea of building a minories representation of Holborn Viaduct. It would accommodate at least four car EMUs and for interest would include parcels and newspaper traffic.

It will be set in the mid 1980s.

 

The scenic board will be 8ft x 1ft6. Fiddle yard will be a traverser able to accommodate 4 car EMUs. So 4ft should be adequate.

 

I'll post my interpretation later but if anyone has any thoughts or ideas they are very much welcomed.

 

Dave

[trisonic]

Fenchurch Street (to the east of Holborn) was, I think, the original inspiration (considering the line passed through an area called The Minories).

Another one to think about, anyway.

 

Best, Pete.

[Fenman]

Fenchurch Street (to the east of Holborn) was, I think, the original inspiration (considering the line passed through an area called The Minories).

 

 

I thought the inspiration was the Metropolitan line station at Liverpool Street?

 

Paul

[trisonic]

Could well be, I wasn't definitive.

Best, Pete.

[The Bigbee Line]

I worked into Holborn Viaduct in the early 1980's.  Mostly EPBs I think.  Mostly suburban (Sevenoaks, Orpington as destinations IIRC) There may have been the odd long distance commuter service in the peak.  Someone needs to check the timetables.  Parcels and Papers had stopped by then, but a small shift in the space time continuum will sort that.

 

As always any pictures are appreciated.

[Oldddudders]

Holborn Viaduct is a good, compact prototype, and platform lengths were a tight constraint, I think. The Chatham side (Victoria & Holborn) of the South Eastern was strictly an 8-car railway, unlike the South Eastern side (Charing X & Cannon St) with the 10-car scheme in the '50s. There were some 8-CEP workings from the Kent Coast in the peak, but by and large, as said above, it was EPBs. For many years the off-peak service pattern was Sevenoaks via the Catford Loop and Swanley, and London Bridge (yes) via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton and West Croydon.

 

Proximity to Fleet Street mean there had been much news traffic, but this had gone long before.

 

Could be great fun.

[sub39h]

I thought the inspiration was the Metropolitan line station at Liverpool Street?

 

Paul

 

I don't know definitively, but I lived around there last year. The station approach to Fenchurch Street Station goes over a street called The Minories in the City of London. Hence my educated guess would be that the Minories track plan was inspired by Fenchurch Street rather than Liverpool Street. 

[Fenman]

I don't know definitively, but I lived around there last year. The station approach to Fenchurch Street Station goes over a street called The Minories in the City of London. Hence my educated guess would be that the Minories track plan was inspired by Fenchurch Street rather than Liverpool Street. 

 

"The idea for the Minories came to Freezer on a visit to the old Metropolitan Station at Liverpool Street and is probably his best-known and most popular design"

Source: Daily Telegraph obituary 

 

Paul

[Fenman]

And another source:

 

CJF called his best-known layout plan the "deceptively simple Minories, a three platform city terminus built on a pair of folding baseboards." The story goes that Cyril was standing at Liverpool Street (Met) station, when he realized that a similar model track pattern might be worthwhile. He quickly sketched it out, and the rest is history. According to CJF, he "spent 30-odd years trying, in vain, to improve upon the basic scheme."

Source: Carl Arendt's site

 

Google really is our friend!

 

Paul

[bigdaveadams1]

Well it could already be in the bin. Having suggested Holborn Viaduct to my modelling compatriot, he has other ideas! He has his heart set on modelling 24s/31s and Suburbans. So Moorgate will now be the basis. I just need to track down the excellent representation of Moorgate built for the minories challenge!

[The Bigbee Line]

Well it could already be in the bin. Having suggested Holborn Viaduct to my modelling compatriot, he has other ideas! He has his heart set on modelling 24s/31s and Suburbans. So Moorgate will now be the basis. I just need to track down the excellent representation of Moorgate built for the minories challenge!

Nothing wrong with a change of venue.  The Hornby Maroon LNER suburbans are tempting, but horrendously expensive.  What formations are you thinking of?

[Pacific231G]

According to Cyril Freezer himself it was while studying the trackwork at Liverpool Street (Metropolitan Line) and doodling ideas that didn't require a double slip, which wasn't then available ready made,  that he hit on the track formation of Minories.  Minories seems to have come to mean any urban terminus with three platforms and a double track main line but Freezer's stroke of genius was to form each of the the two crossovers from a right and a left hand turnout arranged with the two right hands back to back.  This means that between each of the three platform roads and either main line track there is a single and mostly fairly easy reverse curve to take: only a train arriving on platform one from the up line (if this is the  London terminus) has to negotiate a reverse curve through two turnouts immediately after one another. For all other movements the reverse curves are separated by at least the length of a turnout.

 

 

Both CJF's and a traditional straight arrangement achieve the same thing in the same length of two crossovers but you can see that on the straight version the reverse curves are all fairly sharp while a train departing from platform 3  has to negotiate a double reverse curve.. Freezer's plan also makes this fairly simple throat look more complicated and busy which is surely an advantage when representing an urban terminus.

 

The limitation of both these plans for a busy commuter terminus is that you can only have simultaneous arrivals and departures if platform one is the departure platform. If you add an extra track connecting the up line and platform three you can have simultaneous arrivals and departures using platforms two and three as well.

 

 

This enables a really intense rush hour service to be run with trains departing onto the down line in the platform order 3,2,1 and arriving trains filling each platform from the up line as soon as it is  free. If trains are loco hauled and not push-pull that could make it very challenging to work in order to get locos from arriving trains onto the next available departure.   

 

 

[bigdaveadams1]

I love the additional line allowing greater operational flexibility! I now need to get hold of a working timetable for Moorgate in 1975. Wish me luck!

 

As for formations, just 4 Suburbans should do it.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Minories has being a well used plan for layouts ever sincere Cyril published it. I think maybe it is a time for some changes to breath new life into an old plan. I am not so much thinking about major track changes but more operational ones.Let me elaborate a little here, as I think a Holborn Viaduct based layout could well be a good starting point.

 

My basic idea is to lengthen the platforms to take 8 or 12 car EMU's and either to share the same platform or for 2 or more trains or combine or split others at a platform; In this way you could get a lot more operational fun in a not greatly larger area. I appreciate that this idea is only really applicable to lsyouts with DMU or EMU's however as there is a far more interest in this area of railway modeling now then when Cyril first penned his Minories plan this could be a postive development of the Minories concept?

 

Nigel

[Southernman46]

For a while I've toyed with the idea of building a minories representation of Holborn Viaduct. It would accommodate at least four car EMUs and for interest would include parcels and newspaper traffic.

It will be set in the mid 1980s.

 

The scenic board will be 8ft x 1ft6. Fiddle yard will be a traverser able to accommodate 4 car EMUs. So 4ft should be adequate.

 

I'll post my interpretation later but if anyone has any thoughts or ideas they are very much welcomed.

 

Dave

by which time you could add a tunnel emerging from below to represent the re-instated Farringdon line

[New Haven Neil]

Hmmm, the  proposal in the OP is sort of what my next layout is intended to represent - a big Minories with a lot of newspaper/parcels traffic added on somehow.  The idea of splitting/joining traiins was aslo in my mind, but I'm not sure I have space for 8 car EMU's.  Then again......

[Oldddudders]

Hmmm, the  proposal in the OP is sort of what my next layout is intended to represent - a big Minories with a lot of newspaper/parcels traffic added on somehow.  The idea of splitting/joining traiins was aslo in my mind, but I'm not sure I have space for 8 car EMU's.  Then again......

While I may be steeped in Southern electric thinking, I am quite sure that the lovely DMUs now available in 2mm and 4mm scales must also be suitable for an intensive city location. So a 4-car arrives and splits for different outgoing services. After all, London still has principal termini without electrification - Paddington and Marylebone - and St Pancras only got juiced in the '80s, KX in the '70s.

[bluebottle]

In a “Model Railways Magazine” extra published in September 1981, CJF included plans showing a development of Minories on a modular basis. This added a small loco depot, a junction and a goods yard which could be linked in different ways. It would “be suitable for construction in cramped conditions, and erection in any one of half-a-dozen ways at an exhibition … it would always be complete, but never need be finished.”

A few points relevant to the discussion on this thread:

After reiterating that the original Minories was based on Liverpool Street (Met), he points out that where it was designed to be modelled in a cutting, the later plan shows it on a brick viaduct.

While it “was originally conceived for suburban working, it is, however, ideally suited for modern diesel era operation”. And, of course, EMUs! “Furthermore,because the platform roads are parallel across the break, it is feasible to extend the length if required.”

The additions are given the names “Cheapside Shed”, Blackfriars Junction” and Leadenhall Yard”, and it is pointed out that “Minories” is pronounced “Min- not Mine- . The names come from the City, as is right and proper, but clearly geography is haywire.” He seems to have anticipated some developments and queries!

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Oldddudders, on 10 Nov 2013 - 18:07, said:

After all, London still has principal termini without electrification - Paddington and Marylebone - and St Pancras only got juiced in the '80s, KX in the '70s.

One could argue that the Heathrow Express has electrified at least part of Padd. Then again, didn't the GW own the H&C which was electrified too?

 

But I know what you mean Ian.....

[Clive Mortimore]

While I may be steeped in Southern electric thinking, I am quite sure that the lovely DMUs now available in 2mm and 4mm scales must also be suitable for an intensive city location. So a 4-car arrives and splits for different outgoing services. After all, London still has principal termini without electrification - Paddington and Marylebone - and St Pancras only got juiced in the '80s, KX in the '70s.

 

One could argue that the Heathrow Express has electrified at least part of Padd. Then again, didn't the GW own the H&C which was electrified too?

 

But I know what you mean Ian.....

Peter, you beat me to it. I was going to ask Ian how long had he lived in France?   Paddington was one of the first major stations to be elctrocuted, as you rightly point out with it being on the Hammersmith and city line.

 

 

I love the additional line allowing greater operational flexibility! I now need to get hold of a working timetable for Moorgate in 1975. Wish me luck!

 

As for formations, just 4 Suburbans should do it.

Hi Dave

 

I have the 1969-70 ER working time table for the King Cross which includes the workings to Moorgate, there would not have been much in the way of changes by 1975. By this point in time the LMR services were all DMUs so from a passenger timetable you should, be able to work out the comings and goings to St Albans and Luton.

[New Haven Neil]

While I may be steeped in Southern electric thinking, I am quite sure that the lovely DMUs now available in 2mm and 4mm scales must also be suitable for an intensive city location. So a 4-car arrives and splits for different outgoing services. After all, London still has principal termini without electrification - Paddington and Marylebone - and St Pancras only got juiced in the '80s, KX in the '70s.

 

Ah, I have a wardrobe full of EMU's I have been collecting with 3rd rail in mind!  Simon's fault really.  I do have some DMU's but they are blue, from a brief dalliance in 70/80's era - my EMU's are very much green era, I felt I needed to do something completely different, as the saying goes!  A touch of steam may also be seen on the parcels, and 35020 of course, on some end of MN;s steam special!

[johnb]

I must be a long distance mind reader or something,    I've got a City of London based 3rd rail 1970 (ish) layout under build at present, pretty small with about 8ft of scenics, designed for 4 car EMUs and some limited parcels working. I've some ideas about the supposed location, which involve some fictional  bending  ... er..... modifications, to both the history and geography to the City. When I'm a bit further advanced I'll start to post some more info.

 

John

[bigdaveadams1]

Hmmm, the proposal in the OP is sort of what my next layout is intended to represent - a big Minories with a lot of newspaper/parcels traffic added on somehow. The idea of splitting/joining traiins was aslo in my mind, but I'm not sure I have space for 8 car EMU's. Then again......

Well I was thinking along the same lines. However I'd have 33s and 73s on my parcels/papers. I'd love to do it in N gauge if only farish would produce an EPB!

[bigdaveadams1]

Peter, you beat me to it. I was going to ask Ian how long had he lived in France? Paddington was one of the first major stations to be elctrocuted, as you rightly point out with it being on the Hammersmith and city line.

 

 

Hi Dave

 

I have the 1969-70 ER working time table for the King Cross which includes the workings to Moorgate, there would not have been much in the way of changes by 1975. By this point in time the LMR services were all DMUs so from a passenger timetable you should, be able to work out the comings and goings to St Albans and Luton.

Cheers for that! You wouldn't mind sharing the working timetable code would you? I might be able to find one on a certain auction site! If not I'll pick up the br timetable for the period and do as you suggest.

[New Haven Neil]

It would work well in N in my garage, but I can't see the damn things.....and N scale tracklaying and my engineers battered fingers aren't compatible really.  I have thought a couple of times about trying, but a pal has a Santa fe layout in N here and I struggle to operate it well.  The final straw was Mrs NHN's opinion of N - 'stupid little things' - she has the final say over finance....so OO it is!