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Proper 00 track.

Agree with this 100%, OO track manages to achieve a lot of the improvement in realism of EM/P4 with an awful lot less hassle for modelers, it amazes me why it is something that people like Peco ignore.

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Honestly, Dave, I think you should avoid digging into the track market.  Most people who are going to be really bothered by the look are likely to build EM or P4 anyways.

 

If anything, I would love if you would start testing the waters with 3.5mm/ 1/87/ H0 scale RTR English prototype, maybe starting with a WD 2-8-0, or something else that found it's way onto the continent and points beyond after the wars.

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Honestly, Dave, I think you should avoid digging into the track market.  Most people who are going to be really bothered by the look are likely to build EM or P4 anyways.

 

I think from the 30 odd pages generated on here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-a-new-range-likely-in-2014/ that there might be more interest than you might think.

 

Problem being that someone from here has already contacted Peco about it, perhaps somewhat prematurely, and the reply indicates they might, at long last, be showing an interest in it.  I think it might be perilous to undertake pointwork production in these circumstances as I suspect Peco would then pull their finger out and start producing their own range as a 'spoiler'

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I think from the 30 odd pages generated on here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-a-new-range-likely-in-2014/ that there might be more interest than you might think.

 

Problem being that someone from here has already contacted Peco about it, perhaps somewhat prematurely, and the reply indicates they might, at long last, be showing an interest in it.  I think it might be perilous to undertake pointwork production in these circumstances as I suspect Peco would then pull their finger out and start producing their own range as a 'spoiler'

 

Perhaps Peco keep a weather-eye on RMWeb anyway. I would  certainly expect that someone on the publications team (Railway Modeller / Continental Modeller) does and would tell their colleagues.

 

I think that Bill  Bedford made a pertinent point yesterday on that thread. Starting from scratch has certain advantages which, to some extent, balance the advantage that Peco has as the incumbent. Even if Peco respond (which is a "win" for RMWeb users), I think that the new product will be sufficiently different as to still have its place in the market.

 

Earlier in this thread, I said that I did not think that track was a suitable area for DJModels - hence the creation of that new thread. But there could certainly be marketing opportunities/synergies in a new trackwork producer working together with a new loco/rolling stock producer.

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Perhaps Peco keep a weather-eye on RMWeb anyway. I would  certainly expect that someone on the publications team (Railway Modeller / Continental Modeller) does and would tell their colleagues.

 

I think that Bill  Bedford made a pertinent point yesterday on that thread. Starting from scratch has certain advantages which, to some extent, balance the advantage that Peco has as the incumbent. Even if Peco respond (which is a "win" for RMWeb users), I think that the new product will be sufficiently different as to still have its place in the market.

 

Earlier in this thread, I said that I did not think that track was a suitable area for DJModels - hence the creation of that new thread. But there could certainly be marketing opportunities/synergies in a new trackwork producer working together with a new loco/rolling stock producer.

Knowing exactly what a new track system would cost, made to standards that we, today, would see as a 'norm' on any new track system ( darkened rail, DCC ready point work, finer frogs, chairs, rail etc), I don't think that this is a go'er for anyone except those with deep pockets.

 

I know my pockets aren't that deep, plus you've then got a problem as to retail cost too. £7.00+ for a piece of flexible and £20.00+ for a medium point.

 

Peco really have this market pretty much sown up IMHO, as a lot of their tooling is amortised now and as such won't cost them anything, making a newcomers entry more expensive and unlikely.

Cheers

Dave

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Knowing exactly what a new track system would cost, made to standards that we, today, would see as a 'norm' on any new track system ( darkened rail, DCC ready point work, finer frogs, chairs, rail etc), I don't think that this is a go'er for anyone except those with deep pockets.

 

I know my pockets aren't that deep, plus you've then got a problem as to retail cost too. £7.00+ for a piece of flexible and £20.00+ for a medium point.

 

Peco really have this market pretty much sown up IMHO, as a lot of their tooling is amortised now and as such won't cost them anything, making a newcomers entry more expensive and unlikely.

Cheers

Dave

 

Dave,

 

I don't know if you have had a chance to read the thread concerned (39 pages currently!).

 

The matters you raise have largely been rehearsed there. The question that I would ask you, as an industry expert, is why tooling costs for trackwork seem to have remained relatively high (or at least perceived to be) when tooling costs for other items e.g. loco bodies have clearly come down a lot. Have we been asking the wrong people?

 

How is it that in other countries (no names, no packdrill), small manufacturers have managed to enter this market with some very good products but not in the UK. Is that just down to Peco scaring them off (unintentionally)?

 

PS: Peco are still investing a lot each year in tooling, but not on the product which could be the biggest seller.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Hi Joseph,

 

Tooling for loco bodies coming down?

Sorry no, like all things they are going up.

 

Once upon a time, I never thought you'd spend £100k on a loco tooling for a OO gauge J94, but those days are upon us.

 

Please remember that a loco sale will return on investment quicker than track, and as such thoughts towards a new standard of track work in any gauge will, certainly for someone like me, be secondary to producing a loco.

 

Tooling for something a yard long is going to cost in steel alone, add assemby etc and then the factories profit, shipping, your profit, the stockists profit, VAT etc and you can see where the money gets swallowed up.

 

Cheers

Dave

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Hi Joseph,

 

Tooling for loco bodies coming down?

Sorry no, like all things they are going up.

 

Once upon a time, I never thought you'd spend £100k on a loco tooling for a OO gauge J94, but those days are upon us.

 

Please remember that a loco sale will return on investment quicker than track, and as such thoughts towards a new standard of track work in any gauge will, certainly for someone like me, be secondary to producing a loco.

 

Tooling for something a yard long is going to cost in steel alone, add assemby etc and then the factories profit, shipping, your profit, the stockists profit, VAT etc and you can see where the money gets swallowed up.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Allowing for inflation, they have gone down - a lot. It was costing £15,000 to tool up a loco in the days when they were selling for a fiver. If we take it that the J94 will sell for around £80 (conservative estimate) these days, the equivalent tooling cost would be £240,000 not £100,000. And that's without considering how much better the tooling is now.

 

However, I totally agree with you with regard to the return on investment. I think it's rather easier for you to make a judgment about how many of any particular loco is likely to sell and how quickly. First series are often effectively presold these days, so potentially the tooling costs could be recouped immediately. That is not going to be the case for trackwork products.

 

We started the other thread because I was already certain you would not want to be involved with trackwork. Perhaps we should enforce that and take all this discussion there. Somewhere (I forget which of the 40 pages), I have already discussed my views on track. What is sacrosanct about 1 yard or 1 metre as a length?

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I suppose we would also want timber and concrete sleeper track, medium and long radius turnouts plus diamond crossings, single and double slips etc

 

Ian

 

We have had some more obscure requests than that already!

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What is sacrosanct about 1 yard or 1 metre as a length?

Probably nothing beyond it's what people are expecting; but whatever length you choose the assembly jig ends up at that size regardless of whether the track bed is moulded in one piece or (more sensibly) made of smaller modular sections.

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Perhaps Peco keep a weather-eye on RMWeb anyway. I would  certainly expect that someone on the publications team (Railway Modeller / Continental Modeller) does and would tell their colleagues.

 

I think that Bill  Bedford made a pertinent point yesterday on that thread. Starting from scratch has certain advantages which, to some extent, balance the advantage that Peco has as the incumbent. Even if Peco respond (which is a "win" for RMWeb users), I think that the new product will be sufficiently different as to still have its place in the market.

 

Earlier in this thread, I said that I did not think that track was a suitable area for DJModels - hence the creation of that new thread. But there could certainly be marketing opportunities/synergies in a new trackwork producer working together with a new loco/rolling stock producer.

 

True Joseph, but as per the RTL track thread you started, it seems likely that Peco would opt to take this forward primarily for Flat Bottom, leaving Bull Head as a market still to be filled. Keep going!!

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True Joseph, but as per the RTL track thread you started, it seems likely that Peco would opt to take this forward primarily for Flat Bottom, leaving Bull Head as a market still to be filled. Keep going!!

To be honest, I wouldn't blame them. You want bull head, you build it yourself; you don't want to build it yourself, you accept what's out there, i.e. flat bottom.

 

Someone's got to make a decision. Otherwise you'll end up with so many varieties with none of them selling enough to cover their costs and make a profit.

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To be honest, I wouldn't blame them. You want bull head, you build it yourself; you don't want to build it yourself, you accept what's out there, i.e. flat bottom.

 

Someone's got to make a decision. Otherwise you'll end up with so many varieties with none of them selling enough to cover their costs and make a profit.

Surley choice of a variety of track and point work will mean competition which is better for sales......or so we are told. 

 

Looking back at the days when the choice of class 47 was the Hornby one, now look at the choices we have and each new one is an improvement on the last. Because the leading track manufacturer has no competition we put up with their product. If there was a competitor and we had choice then we would see improvements elsewhere.

 

"The development cost of an all wheel pick-up, centally motored all wheel drive diesel would be too much for the limited British "Modern Image" market that a profit would never be made. So put up with your pancake motors", was the cry in the past. Let us stop thinking British 00 (and N gauge) track in both bullhead and flatbottom will never happen. All we do is talk ourselves down.

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Dave, if you do start doing unpowered stock, would you consider MoW vehicles in N?  Or even 00?  English prototype MoW and Breakdown equipment is few and far between RTR.  And in N, even the kit selection is slim.

 

Personally, a Crowans-Sheldon 15 ton in N would be amazing, especially if you produced it with the shelter in GWR livery.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well you did ask.

 

A 4mm scale BR(S) and a SR version of the Adams Radial 4-4-2T

4 mm scale Celestory coaches with raised moldings on the body shell.

First World War Era 4mm scale coaches to match GWR City, S&D 7F, etc. 

4mm scale Non Corridor coaches for branch line working.

4mm scale RTR 1960's Red Period London Underground Train, 1938 stock perhaps.  

4mm scale Level crossing with working crossing gates

4mm scale Competitively priced and reliable working turntable

 

SEE - its not a long list of locos.  Regards Stephen.  

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