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DMU Set numbers


treggyman
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Hi All

 

I have built an '80's / 90's layout called Creedyford which features on this site.

 

I wish to run DMU's as well as loco hauled passenger trains.

 

At this time DMU's had a set number & letter prefix painted on the cab fronts.....ie.P460 where the P relates to the unit being allocated to Plymouth Laira & the set number (I assume) being 460.The unit in question is the class 118 unit painted in Telecoms livery.

 

The question really is.....I have several books on the first generation DMU's.....I can find the sets that they ran in (vehicle numbers ) but none give me a set number (Pxxx).

 

A lot of the pictures on the internet & elsewhere just say "DMU at Wherever".....The set number is visible but no mention of the class of DMU.......

 

As I'm not good at distinguishing the class of DMU from face on or 3/4 view pictures I am wondering if somewhere there is a publication or site that lists set numbers with class of DMU &  vehicle numbers within the set......

 

I was just about to apply numbers to the front of a Class 108 when I realised the door layout was different on the picture I was studying....I think the unit in question was a 118....but I'm not sure......

 

Thanks in advance

 

Bill

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Platform five number books were one of the first to publish set numbers. With the Western being first to be published mainstream.

 

Only a very few gained a tops based class number and these were once the majority of first gen dmu's had gone.

 

Hi All

 

I have built an '80's / 90's layout called Creedyford which features on this site.

 

I wish to run DMU's as well as loco hauled passenger trains.

 

At this time DMU's had a set number & letter prefix painted on the cab fronts.....ie.P460 where the P relates to the unit being allocated to Plymouth Laira & the set number (I assume) being 460.The unit in question is the class 118 unit painted in Telecoms livery.

 

The question really is.....I have several books on the first generation DMU's.....I can find the sets that they ran in (vehicle numbers ) but none give me a set number (Pxxx).

 

A lot of the pictures on the internet & elsewhere just say "DMU at Wherever".....The set number is visible but no mention of the class of DMU.......

 

As I'm not good at distinguishing the class of DMU from face on or 3/4 view pictures I am wondering if somewhere there is a publication or site that lists set numbers with class of DMU &  vehicle numbers within the set......

 

I was just about to apply numbers to the front of a Class 108 when I realised the door layout was different on the picture I was studying....I think the unit in question was a 118....but I'm not sure......

 

Thanks in advance

 

Bill

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Platform five number books were one of the first to publish set numbers. With the Western being first to be published mainstream.

 

Only a very few gained a tops based class number and these were once the majority of first gen dmu's had gone.

 

 

Hi

 

Thanks for the quick reply.......

 

I did once have one or two platform 5 books around that era.....Where they are...who knows....

 

A troll through Ebay is the answer I suppose....

 

What do you mean by TOPS based class number ?  Sorry to appear dumb but would this number be applied to the vehicle & if so where ?

 

The problem is  that most pictures I can find of the stock I am interested in don't list/show the vehicle numbers.....If they did I could work the set numbers out myself....The problem of pre Digital photography where it cost quite a lot to have ones pictures developed so most photographers took general pictures of DMU's as they would be around forever but detailed pictures of loco's because they were more interesting!!!!

 

Thanks again

 

Cheers Bill

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As you say the Western used a letter to indicate its shed

 

B Bristol

C Cardiff

L Reading - ( I think some units based from old oak OO also used an L prefix?)

P Plymouth

 

Followed by a three digit number usually displayed on the cab front below the drivers window.

 

Other regions or sheds developed unit numbers but more often displayed them inside, the later adopting WR practice T Tyseley, I think the LM had a more fluid way of assembling their units

 

I cant recall when the Scr started using set numbers, I think I recall seeing 107 xxx etc used.

 

It was late on that first gen dmu all gained "tops" numbers 101 6xx 117 xxx etc again under the drivers window.

 

If you csn post your pic here there will be loads of us that will identify the unit in question!

 

Hi

 

 

What do you mean by TOPS based class number ?  Sorry to appear dumb but would this number be applied to the vehicle & if so where ?

 

 

Thanks again

 

Cheers Bill

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I've had a look at an Ian Allan ABC "Combined Volume" for 1981, and it gives both class and set numbers (although the prefix letter is absent).

 

So for example, it identifies that set 460 was comprised of units W51302, W59469 and W51317.  Looking at the listings for these units show that they were Birmingham RC&W 3-car suburban units, class 118. 

 

So it's simply a case of finding the appropriate ABC for the year in question.

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As you say the Western used a letter to indicate its shed

B Bristol

C Cardiff

L Reading - ( I think some units based from old oak OO also used an L prefix?)

P Plymouth

Followed by a three digit number usually displayed on the cab front below the drivers window.

Other regions or sheds developed unit numbers but more often displayed them inside, the later adopting WR practice T Tyseley, I think the LM had a more fluid way of assembling their units

I cant recall when the Scr started using set numbers, I think I recall seeing 107 xxx etc used.

It was late on that first gen dmu all gained "tops" numbers 101 6xx 117 xxx etc again under the drivers window.

If you csn post your pic here there will be loads of us that will identify the unit in question!

As you say the Western used a letter to indicate its shed

B Bristol

C Cardiff

L Reading - ( I think some units based from old oak OO also used an L prefix?)

P Plymouth

Followed by a three digit number usually displayed on the cab front below the drivers window.

Other regions or sheds developed unit numbers but more often displayed them inside, the later adopting WR practice T Tyseley, I think the LM had a more fluid way of assembling their units

I cant recall when the Scr started using set numbers, I think I recall seeing 107 xxx etc used.

It was late on that first gen dmu all gained "tops" numbers 101 6xx 117 xxx etc again under the drivers window.

If you csn post your pic here there will be loads of us that will identify the unit in question!

 

Don't forget Southall Ian which was the main London depot for the WR suburban DMU's

 

Nigel

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B Bristol

C Cardiff

L Reading - ( I think some units based from old oak OO also used an L prefix?)

P Plymouth

 

 

L meant "London Division" 

B was "Bristol Division"

C was "Cardiff Division"

P was "Plymouth Division"

 

They didn't refer to any specific depots though in practice B, C and P sets were mostly based at Bristol, Cardiff or Plymouth. L sets were mostly allocated to Reading but worked from Southall; later Old Oak Common had a small allocation for the Gospel Oak - Barking line.

 

In later years "S" appeared on West Wales sets based at Swansea.

 

The formations varied over the years and the various "Combines" didn't list set formations and numbers until around the mid 80s meaning harder work to find anything on record before then.  Some depots / regions had very flexible fleets coupled as required while others almost religiously kept their sets in booked formation.  

 

Just as with spotting a MU set number taking a DMU set number never guaranteed which vehicles were in it - you had to take the individual numbers to be certain. 

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Hi Nigel,

 

Being an LM man, I knew AN, LO, CH, NH and KD with my eyes closed, I could only ever recall seeing 117's and 119's with RG! Was Southall a location before Reading?

 

Don't forget Southall Ian which was the main London depot for the WR suburban DMU's

Nigel

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Southall operated alongside Reading.  It provided the majority of class 117 sets for Thames Valley locals while Reading covered the outer suburban trips to Oxford and Newbury plus the Henley and Bourne End / Marlow branches.  Southall provided bubble cars for the Windsor, Staines West and Uxbridge branches and a bubble plus trailer for the Greenford "bus".

 

The two-letter depot codes post-date the use by BR WR of the L, B, C, P and S prefixes to their set numbers.  By that time DMU sets were generally carrying 6-digit TOPS numbers, often (on WR sets) with the class number stuck hastily over the previous letter.

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I suspect the relevant Western Region prefixes L, B, P, C etc may have referred to operating divisions initially e.g. London, Bristol, Plymouth, Cardiff etc.

.

Unlike most other regions, the Western were quite strict as far as keeping their DMU sets in the same formation.

 

Locally (to me) Cardiff area units started to receive their set numbers painted under the right hand cab window during 1971.

.

What has confused me was the way the WR allocated its' DMU set numbers.

.

e.g.

Although WR sets had set numbers for sometime prior to 1971, when they were applied to the cab fronts I began to take notice and record them.

.

However, there was no apparent set pattern to the numbering of say the Derby suburban units (later Cl.116) which ran 300, 301, 303-311, 314-316, 318, 320, 321, 327-329, 331, 337, 338, 344, 346, 351. 

.

At the time the set numbers began to be applied the fitting of through gangways within these WR sets was coming to an end - but, as was the issue with the Ian Allan pocket books in those days, the published information was at variance with reality, and my 1971 Combined Volume for example, whilst not showing details of the composition of the region's sets, shows some sets I identified, as having only one or two cars in a set gangwayed.

.

There were some weird and wonderful 'set' numbers as well

e.g.

50090 was 'set' 101, and 50132 was 'set' 104 having been split from their trailer (59040) which went to Bristol and was at one time formed between Swindon Cross Country cars 50665 and 50715  to work local Diagram 27 (whatever that was).

 

50090 & 50132 were used as additional power cars on the 'North & West' Cardiff-Crewe route locked out of use, and coupled to buffet fitted Cl.120 Swindon Cross Country sets.

 

Canton single cars were also used as additional power and some were numbered:-

55023 - 'set' 103 and 55026 as 'set' 102,

 

I am sponge for information about WR DMU sets in the early 70s - so if anyone has other gen, please feel free to post it.

.

Brian R

Edited by br2975
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However, there was no apparent set pattern to the numbering of say the Derby suburban units (later Cl.116) which ran 300, 301, 303-311, 314-316, 318, 320, 321, 327-329, 331, 337, 338, 344, 346, 351. .

.

Brian R

 

Set numbering began almost with the arrival of the suburban dmus from late 957, though in the early days the numbers were painted on discreet little plates and mounted on the solebars of the power cars.  At Cardiff the numbers began at CAT300 [CAT for Cathays] and went through to CAT355.  It seems to have been too hard for them to number the sets in order of receipt.  The gaps were caused by subsequent transfers away.  Those working in the Eastern and Western Valleys were based at Canton and had CDF4xx numbers.  London's numbers were initially prefixed RDG and SHL and those were numbered in order of receipt, though it did not take long for sets to be swapped between Reading and Southall.  Laira's units were numbered first in order of receipt but when sets were transferred way those that remained were renumbered.  Tyseley was a law unto itself and the set number was carried on a card in the driving cab.  Bristol had set numbers in the series BL3xx but as the nominally three coach sets kept getting reformed as twos and fours they must have been difficult to track.

 

Chris

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Hi All

 

Thank you all for the above replies......I am overwhelmed with the depth of very useful information/knowledge so quickly posted......

 

If you will forgive me I shall not thank you individually but please take this as a genuine thank you for all of the time you have all spent responding....especially the kind member who PM'd me with the copies of the relevant pages of his 1988 platform 5 book with the set nos allocated to which vehicles

 

It will take a while to digest all the above information,& I can see the wallet taking a bit of a hammering purchasing more books.....

I almost enjoy buying books more than rolling stock....I did say almost.....

 

The main point of the enquiry was to enable me to add the correct set no to the correct class of DMU.

The set number was quite prominent & wheras from the above correspondence I might get away with having 'incorrect' vehicle nos within the set(repairs etc) if the set number I'd applied to a class 108 unit actually related to a class 118 for example,this would be more obviously incorrect.

 

Anyway I don't think I've got any excuse now for getting it wrong...

 

THANK you all again....I'm very grateful & any more info always welcome.......

 

One further small question.....If a unit was transferred ,say from the Midland region to the Western,I assume the M prefix was either just removed,or was it changed straight away to a W ?

 

Cheers Bill

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When any coaching stock, including DMU vehicles, was transferred between regions the regional prefix to the carriage numbers would be changed.  How quickly that occurred varied by depot.  I've noted class 120 units which were scattered around the country formed with a mix of W and M-prefix vehicles in the same unit for example.  In later years regional prefix letters were abandoned altogether as business sectors took over from the regions.

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When any coaching stock, including DMU vehicles, was transferred between regions the regional prefix to the carriage numbers would be changed.  How quickly that occurred varied by depot.  I've noted class 120 units which were scattered around the country formed with a mix of W and M-prefix vehicles in the same unit for example.  In later years regional prefix letters were abandoned altogether as business sectors took over from the regions.

 

Hi

 

Thanks for the above.....When would latter years be?

I assume early '90's?

 

Cheers Bill

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51302 59469 51317 was P460 in my 1986 Platform 5 book.

 

The amazing thing with this unit is that it must have spent much of its life in SW England, as looking through my spotting notes I first saw it in Aug 1969 at Exeter, and it was withdrawn soon after 1986 when it was still a Laira based unit.

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The amazing thing with this unit is that it must have spent much of its life in SW England, as looking through my spotting notes I first saw it in Aug 1969 at Exeter, and it was withdrawn soon after 1986 when it was still a Laira based unit.

Hi

 

Having been built in 1960 this sadly only gives it a short 26 year life!!!!

 

I saw it a few times but either had no camera or something 'more interesting' took my fancy.

After all these units would be around for ever ,wouldn't they!!!!!!

The benefit of hindsight.......If only todays digital cameras had been around then.....

 

Cheers Bill

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Set numbering began almost with the arrival of the suburban dmus from late 957, though in the early days the numbers were painted on discreet little plates and mounted on the solebars of the power cars.  At Cardiff the numbers began at CAT300 [CAT for Cathays] and went through to CAT355.  It seems to have been too hard for them to number the sets in order of receipt.  The gaps were caused by subsequent transfers away.  Those working in the Eastern and Western Valleys were based at Canton and had CDF4xx numbers.  London's numbers were initially prefixed RDG and SHL and those were numbered in order of receipt, though it did not take long for sets to be swapped between Reading and Southall.  Laira's units were numbered first in order of receipt but when sets were transferred way those that remained were renumbered.  Tyseley was a law unto itself and the set number was carried on a card in the driving cab.  Bristol had set numbers in the series BL3xx but as the nominally three coach sets kept getting reformed as twos and fours they must have been difficult to track.

 

Chris

 

 

This is what I find confusing ? / annoying ? (not sure which) ...... in that the WR starts to paint set numbers on the front of its (say Cl.116)  units when a number of those sets are being transferred away to (predominantly) the Eastern and Scottish depots, whilst a few still contained a composite trailer and others weren't yet gangwayed, regardless of being in the 500xx, 508xx or 511xx series and doesn't take the opportunity to have a rethink and condense the set numbers into an almost consecutive block.

 

But, what I'd give to see a 'Derby sub set' roll into Ninian Park 'Halt' spewing exhaust fumes, frames sagging, windows rattling. Then to climb in and sink into a seat breathing in the exhaust fumes and doze off because the heating was excessive (summer) and after two blasts of the buzzer and with a farty raspberry sound (from the DMU, not me !) slowly accelerate the one stop to home.

 

Brian R

Edited by br2975
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.

However, there was no apparent set pattern to the numbering of say the Derby suburban units (later Cl.116) which ran 300, 301, 303-311, 314-316, 318, 320, 321, 327-329, 331, 337, 338, 344, 346, 351. 

.

At the time the set numbers began to be applied the fitting of through gangways within these WR sets was coming to an end - but, as was the issue with the Ian Allan pocket books in those days, the published information was at variance with reality, and my 1971 Combined Volume for example, whilst not showing details of the composition of the region's sets, shows some sets I identified, as having only one or two cars in a set gangwayed.

.

 

 

I am sponge for information about WR DMU sets in the early 70s - so if anyone has other gen, please feel free to post it.

.

Brian R

Here is a page from one of my old copies of the 'Cardiff and Avonside Railway Society' Newsletter 56, August 1976.

 

I have checked my 1976 and 1977 Ian Allan Locoshed books for the vehicle allocations, and added B, C, L, or P as appropriate,

some of the sets moved allocation during 1976/7 as will be seen.

For example sets 470-473 moved to Laira, and all the Bristol class 117s went to Reading. Also set 319 moved from Laira to Cardiff.

 

I checked against my 1983 Platform 5 book to work out the DMU classes, which I have added on the right.

Any errors are therefore mine! 

 

post-7081-0-96877100-1384522136_thumb.jpg

 

cheers

Edited by Rivercider
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