RMweb commission Hunslet 'Austerity' through DJModels

[jjb1970]

I think this highlights some of the issues around the pre-order model. If the interval between ordering and delivery is short it tends to work well but the longer that interval gets then people start to change their mind, financial circumstances may change, orders and invoices may get lost, credit card details change etc. Which means that with the best will in the world on both sides there are likely to be cancellations on one side and hiccups in delivery on the other. I'm not saying this as a criticism of either buyers or sellers, but it is a factor that is probably an inescapable aspect of a shift to pre-orders, hopefully in most cases a small one.

[stewartingram]

I'm stiil of the old school, maybe a generation thing.

If I pop into a shop (model or otherwise) and ask them to get something in especially for me, I feel it is only right that I conclude the deal by purchasing it when it arrives. Common decency old chap!

There have been very rare occasions when the item has arrived, that I have not wanted it (maybe already got another as a present, or perhaps totally wrong for what I wanted); but I have gone in the shop prepared to cut my losses and buy it anyway, after all the shop has purchased it ​on my behalf​, I can't however think of an occasion when I've actually had to. If it is something he can still sell anyway he would keep it, or find a way of returning it to the wholesaler and getting his money back.

 

Stewart

[Wheatley]

I agree Stewart, it's not something I've ever done for exactly the same reasons. My point was that neither asking a shop to obtain a stock item nor 'expressing an interest' in a forthcoming release constitutes an agreement to buy and it naïve of a retailer to assume otherwise.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Wheatley

[jamie.dunn]

I got a model of the early crest model from Digitrains last week at Gaydon and it's a great model other then when I got it out of the box I noticed that the smokebox handle had come a drift in the bottom of the box, how can I go about glue this back on without damaging the loco? Still yet to try running her I've been so busy this week.

[Roy Langridge]

Firstly, if you ask a shop to order something for you there is an agreement to buy - it is a verbal contract and is as legally binding in the UK as a written one. Proving it can be difficult, but special orders are often recorded so that is not such an issue. Some people above seem to have tried to apply distance-selling regulations to shops - they are different.

 

Secondly, I never tried to suggest that by changing expressions of interest to commitments would mean people could not cancel - rather that if people knew that they were committing (pre-ordering) they may think more about what they really want rather than just think "that would be nice". I don't know what percentage of pre-orders cancelled with the likes of Kernow and Hattons are, but it is nowhere near the percentage that Dave / Andy have suffered on the RMWeb special.

 

Lastly, if an item is made to match a number of pre-orders, it may be considered as custom made as an additional item has been made specifically for that customer. I asked a lawyer friend who said it would be interesting to see it challenged in court where precedence would be set.

 

Roy

Edited October 16, 2016 by Roy Langridge

[adb968008]

Lastly, if an item is made to match a number of pre-orders, it may be considered as custom made as an additional item has been made specifically for that customer. I asked a lawyer friend who said it would be interesting to see it challenged in court where precedence would be set.

 

Roy

On a £100 item, nowhere.

Edited October 16, 2016 by adb968008

[mikeharvey22]

It seems to me that the root cause of the problem may be the way that expressions of interest are recorded, and acknowledged. It is no surprise that if an acknowledgement is not received a potential buyer thinks that the expression of interest has not gone through at all, and therefore orders again. The same problem has afflicted the Class 92 ordering with people not receiving an email acknowledgement. Dave has been able to calibrate that by sending out invoices, and the early response from (N gauge) buyers gave rise to the intemperate locked topic here a few Saturdays back.

 

The message is clear that the ordering/expressions software needs an overhaul, and that hiding the long list of potential products under the "Other" tab means that casual browsers leave the site without finding them. The N gauge cars certainly fall into this category according to posts on that topic. I expressed an interest in theN gauge Class 17 and Class 23 almost on day 1, but no acknowledgement as yet!

[DJM Dave]

It seems to me that the root cause of the problem may be the way that expressions of interest are recorded, and acknowledged. It is no surprise that if an acknowledgement is not received a potential buyer thinks that the expression of interest has not gone through at all, and therefore orders again. The same problem has afflicted the Class 92 ordering with people not receiving an email acknowledgement. Dave has been able to calibrate that by sending out invoices, and the early response from (N gauge) buyers gave rise to the intemperate locked topic here a few Saturdays back.

 

The message is clear that the ordering/expressions software needs an overhaul, and that hiding the long list of potential products under the "Other" tab means that casual browsers leave the site without finding them. The N gauge cars certainly fall into this category according to posts on that topic. I expressed an interest in theN gauge Class 17 and Class 23 almost on day 1, but no acknowledgement as yet!

Hi Mike,

 

I fully understand and am looking at the software issue.

 

However if you get a 'successful' expression page after pressing enter, then you can rest assured that i get it, and you have been successful. The only elephant in the room on this is me, and a mistake i may make.

 

However, at the end of the day, the RMW J94's were a let down financially, and i was lucky to be able to break even on the deal. But it's done, i'm not dwelling, and have moved along.

Just gotta get the software sorted now. 

cheers

Dave

[Butler Henderson]

So despite only a few being sold one purchaser seems to think they have one that is worth far more

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DJM-DJ-Models-Hunslet-Austerity-J94-NCB-65-Steam-Locomotive-RMWeb-/142150784773?hash=item2118d8d705:g:Z-0AAOSwzaJYA59P

[Les1952]

So despite only a few being sold one purchaser seems to think they have one that is worth far more

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DJM-DJ-Models-Hunslet-Austerity-J94-NCB-65-Steam-Locomotive-RMWeb-/142150784773?hash=item2118d8d705:g:Z-0AAOSwzaJYA59P

 

Looking at what this guy wants for some of his other auctions I'm not surprised.

 

I've missed a trick.  I should have bought half a dozen and sold them on eBay after a suitable interval...

 

Les

[tetsudofan]

Finally got my Yellow Peril linked up with some NCB wagons and brake van:

 

 

Not from the same colliery but what the heck, they look good together.....

 

Keith

[SDJR7F88]

A quick sound edit, featuring the all new RMweb Exclusive - Limited Edition DJModels Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST, in dazzling NCB Yellow Livery.

Here we see see No.65 Storming past, with a rake of 14 mixed Mineral Wagons, plus Toad Brake Van.

The sound used is from WPR Austerity 0-6-0ST, No.15 'Earl David', hauling a mixed goods train during the Avon Valley Railway 'End of Season Gala' 2014.

Hope you enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ivXsO_CSU

 

Edited October 19, 2016 by SDJR7F88

[Les1952]

Just got my Yellow Peril back from Digitrains following sound fitting.   As I don't know which whistle it SHOULD have I've gone for the hooter.  Note the invisible driver at work.....  A little more to do to get the chuffing four to the revolution.

 

https://youtu.be/6IaJ9w4Zg4k

 

At least this time the background conversation was fairly muted and not about ailments....

 

68023 is now away - this one will get a higher-pitched whistle as I remember Darlington's J94s, including whistles, and might even have heard the real 68023, though my only memory of that one is it propping up the buffer stop at the far end of the line of six withdrawn locos at the South end of 51A waiting the call to Cargo Fleet for scrap.

 

Les

Edited November 18, 2016 by Les1952

[Bomp]

Hi Mike,

 

I fully understand and am looking at the software issue.

 

However if you get a 'successful' expression page after pressing enter, then you can rest assured that i get it, and you have been successful. The only elephant in the room on this is me, and a mistake i may make.

 

However, at the end of the day, the RMW J94's were a let down financially, and i was lucky to be able to break even on the deal. But it's done, i'm not dwelling, and have moved along.

Just gotta get the software sorted now. 

cheers

Dave

 

Sad they weren't a financial success, but I'm very happy with mine and glad you did them.

[JSpencer]

I have to admit, I hate the phrase "expression of interest" as it has a double edged meaning. To many buyers, it can mean you are expressing just an interest and have made no decision to buy. To the business it can mean a solid demand for an item.

 

Personally "pre-order" would be better, as it gives the buyer a greater sense of commitment.

[adb968008]

I have to admit, I hate the phrase "expression of interest" as it has a double edged meaning. To many buyers, it can mean you are expressing just an interest and have made no decision to buy. To the business it can mean a solid demand for an item.

 

Personally "pre-order" would be better, as it gives the buyer a greater sense of commitment.

 

Putting down a deposit is a best of both worlds.. it's a commitment on both sides.

 

My wife expresses interest in vacations every night, but if the holiday company saw her imagination as a firm sale they'd be broke a long time ago.

Edited March 7, 2017 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

When I worked for the Signal Box, "pre-order" was quite adequate for the task intended. You would get some cancellations, but this would rarely ever reach 5% and you could be quite confident of disposing them anyway.

 

In those days (the 90s), you would probably be around 1% getting cancelled as most things were made in the year they were announced, higher figures edging towards 5% would only occur if the manufacturer took years between announcement and release.

So we never required a deposit, indeed, insisting on a deposit would be counter productive as people would then order elsewhere, where no deposit was required.

 

Back then we did not have cases of a product taking years to release AND the price almost doubling like we see sometimes today, so I have no idea how this impacts cancellations, but we could probably see figures as high as 20, 30 even 40%.

 

By contrast when the catalogues came out at the start of each year (no internet nor forums in those days), many customer's walking into the shop would look at the catalogues and show strong interest in many of the new items announced, but only a small number would actually place an order.

If we take this case, 180 expressions of interest were made here, 75% decided not to buy, that is 135. 45 models were brought, many people which actually brought one thought the software failed and expressed interest twice. Even if most of 45 expressed twice, say 35, that still leaves 100 cases of people that did not buy. We conclude - via the internet - 2/3rds of people stating an interest will not buy in the end, only a 1/3rd will get transformed into an order. This is better performance than I had with people looking at a catalogue in a shop, but still shows the big gap between "interest" and an actual "order". 

 

Personally - if Dapol's first Black Label locomotive had been a Merchant Navy, I would certainly have been interested, and would certainly want to be informed more information about it and sign up for a news letter. My decision to actually order one though would have been made much later only once I had more details on the model concerned. Maybe in the business world "expression of interest" is taken to mean a commitment to buy, however 99% of people are not up to scratch on business jargon and may interpret the phrase differently. The purpose of language is to communicate, if the phrase does not effectively carry the message across, then it has failed to communicate and should be re-written accordingly.

Edited March 8, 2017 by JSpencer

[grandadbob]

On 20th September 2013 I expressed an interest in a J94 British Railways Tall Bunker. I was no 15 on the list but it still hasn't arrived and I'm afraid my interest in it has waned and I bought one of the Hatton's versions instead.

 

Dave's website is quite clear about expressions of interest:

 

Pre-order / Expression of interest

Welcome to the ‘order’ page, which for the time being isn’t anything of the kind!
Please feel free to place your ‘order’ which will only be taken as an “expression of interest” and DJM will not treat it as a binding transaction.

However, once the product is available for distribution, I will mail you with a Paypal invoice for your choice or choices of product. This invoice can easily be cancelled by clicking the cancel button on the invoice request. I will be notified by Paypal that this is a cancellation and will remove all information about your ‘expression’ from my system.

Your ‘Expression of interest’ only becomes a binding transaction once you pay the invoice.

At no time will your details ever be passed to third parties, or held on file past the product available notification.

Many thanks
Dave

[JSpencer]

 

On 20th September 2013 I expressed an interest in a J94 British Railways Tall Bunker. I was no 15 on the list but it still hasn't arrived and I'm afraid my interest in it has waned and I bought one of the Hatton's versions instead.

 

Dave's website is quite clear about expressions of interest:

 

Pre-order / Expression of interest

Welcome to the ‘order’ page, which for the time being isn’t anything of the kind!

Please feel free to place your ‘order’ which will only be taken as an “expression of interest” and DJM will not treat it as a binding transaction.

However, once the product is available for distribution, I will mail you with a Paypal invoice for your choice or choices of product. This invoice can easily be cancelled by clicking the cancel button on the invoice request. I will be notified by Paypal that this is a cancellation and will remove all information about your ‘expression’ from my system.

Your ‘Expression of interest’ only becomes a binding transaction once you pay the invoice.

At no time will your details ever be passed to third parties, or held on file past the product available notification.

Many thanks

Dave

 

 

I will admit to not seeing how it was stated on his site. This is quite shocking how many were dropped at the end. I can only assume that the capability to cancel before then does not exist unless you directly contact.

 

I would recommend dropping the "Expression of Interest" part, so it is clear that this is a pre-order, make easy arrangements so people can cancel when they see no longer any need for the item rather than after they get an invoice when it is too late judge how many to make.

It is possible that many people ordering do not use Paypal and may have no wish to set up a paypal account (easily seen as adding another risk to their card details being taken).

 

You could also keep a list of people who can be contacted for additional sales once the order book is full. This will help offset cancellations...

 

Still even then, a 75% drop out rate is unheard of in my experience especially for an item that never changed price.

Edited March 8, 2017 by JSpencer

[grandadbob]

Rather coincidentally this afternoon I have received an invoice for my "expression of interest"  which does again state that there is no obligation to purchase.

 

Regretfully, as I stated earlier, I am no longer interested as I bought another DJMJ94 so I will not be buying this one.

[black and decker boy]

Still even then, a 75% drop out rate is unheard of in my experience especially for an item that never changed price.

If you read back further in this and the other j94 threads you will see a major reason for this:

At expression of interest stage, you were told you would get a confirmation email. No one ever did. There were also many reports on here where DJM confirmed the preorder hadn't shown up on his system.

 

This has then prompted many to place multiple preorders in the vain hope of receiving the promised confirmation or a positive response from DJM himself on here. The fact so many orders are being placed and a sell out was being predicted then no doubt fuelled the rush.

 

In the cold light of day of receiving multiple invoices, everyone had then cancelled all but the one they wanted, or like others, all of them having bought a Hattons version or just simply got bored of waiting.

 

I suffered this way but am now the owner of 3 of the J94 models, none of which are the same and one is the rmweb version.

[DJM Dave]

If you read back further in this and the other j94 threads you will see a major reason for this:

At expression of interest stage, you were told you would get a confirmation email. No one ever did. There were also many reports on here where DJM confirmed the preorder hadn't shown up on his system.

This has then prompted many to place multiple preorders in the vain hope of receiving the promised confirmation or a positive response from DJM himself on here. The fact so many orders are being placed and a sell out was being predicted then no doubt fuelled the rush.

In the cold light of day of receiving multiple invoices, everyone had then cancelled all but the one they wanted, or like others, all of them having bought a Hattons version or just simply got bored of waiting.

I suffered this way but am now the owner of 3 of the J94 models, none of which are the same and one is the rmweb version.

Sorry to dispute this but not much of this is correct.

No one ever got a confirmation e-mail? The majority did, but a few (a minority) didn't.

Many Multiple orders placed? Nope, I had 3 in total I believe

Multiple invoices sent? Yes, due to my buffoonery and a few multiple orders

Everyone had then cancelled? Hmmmmmmm then how did I sell more than a few?

The RMWeb version was released before any Hattons versions.

 

I'm not sure why this is dragging on, it's done, it happened, lessons learnt, not dwelling on it here, and had...................it's Model trains, not a heart transplant where they cannot find a donor.

[tomparryharry]

My 'Expression of Interest' e-mail arrived yesterday. I've already got 2 of these locomotives, via the Hattons site. DJ didn't have my money, so no contract. The contract only exists, should I take up the offer to purchase, which I did.

 

Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware, is the watchword here. If you're jumping up & down because DJ Models didn't take your money, then I strongly believe you would have jumped up & down even higher & harder, whilst having paid, and awaiting this particular version.

 

DJ have, on face value, done the right thing. Had you entered into a contract with DJ, and tired of waiting, you could have asked for a refund. This only takes up time in my experience, and detracts from doing other, important things.

 

I've expressed, and now paid. I've seen enough DJ kit & philosophy to understand the process. I knew the product would arrive.

 

I'm in no way connected to DJ, and I've never met Dave Jones. I do however, understand business start ups, and the sometimes tortuous path they take.

 

Now, for the knitting circle amongst us....

 

The original locomotive was called an 18" Hunslet Austerity.

 

The LNER brought some of these locomotives, and gave them the class name J94.

 

It stands to reason that the ones bought by others, such as the NCB, fall outside of this class nomenclature, and remain 18" Hunslet Austerities. I'm not normally irked, but pay attention at the back!

 

Anyhow, I await my J94, as it has it's own shunting puzzle on which to perform. Now, where did I put those Kadees....?

 

Ian

[ben racey]

So very pleased with my Yellow No.65.... but..... it's so very..... yellow......!

 

So I took it along to Grimy Times(no connection, happy customer!) and they did a great job in taking it down a bit so that the finish replicated the picture as per the photo used in the advert for the model. Photos attached:

 

 

Just need some MGR wagons for it to pull, and it'll really look the part(oh and a layout for it to run on....!)

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.

[SDJR7F88]

See the last few are Yellow Austerity's have found there way on to model websites, shop shelves and a well know auction site.

The image they all use looks strangle familiar though...   Would of been nice if I was asked...

Edited April 17, 2017 by SDJR7F88