GWML Electification

[corneliuslundie]

I hope you weren't taking me too seriously. And i can't remember any steep sided valleys in Berkshire anyway.

Of course in Wales reservoirs are a rather sensitive subject.

Jonathan

[rodent279]

On 01/03/2019 at 13:16, D1059 said:

Don't get tied up on the listing issue - it's only been relevant in that it has been a reason to try and get NR to consider alternatives to a full rebuild. The real issue is the length of time the rebuild will take (9 months to a year), the impact on local businesses, and the inevitable traffic chaos in an area plagued with congestion and adjacent to the notorious A34 which suffers frequent disruption, especially in winter 

Why does it take so long for the rebuild?

Can a new bridge be built alongside, then when completed, either slid in to replace the old one once demolished, or the road diverted to the new one?

[phil-b259]

41 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Why does it take so long for the rebuild?

Can a new bridge be built alongside, then when completed, either slid in to replace the old one once demolished, or the road diverted to the new one?

 

Before posting such suggestions I urge you to have a look at satalite imageary and read the entire thread.

 

plenty of folk have already explained why your suggestion is a non-starter already.

 

sorry if it comes across as rude - but it does get rather tiresome having to explain the same things over and over again simply because folk don’t take the time to read all that has gone before!

 

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I hope you weren't taking me too seriously. And i can't remember any steep sided valleys in Berkshire anyway.

Of course in Wales reservoirs are a rather sensitive subject.

Jonathan

The reservoir proposed to be created just west of Steventon (and a good job the railway is on embankment there) has been talked about, and objected to over quite a lot of years and was kicked out by Govt in 2010 but was resurrected last year by Thames Water.  This map is, I think, of the original proposal -

 

http://www.abingdonreservoir.org.uk/downloads/reservoir-map.pdf

[dibber25]

On 01/03/2019 at 13:03, jamie92208 said:

It seems to me that the objectors have forgotten what IKB actually did.   he designed a high speed and virtually gradient free railway from London to Bristol.  Whilst he did try to use good design his primary purpose was a main line that worked.   The same was true for the Midland's engineers when they built the S & C.   They wanted a good line between two cities that was as economical as possible to build and run.   If they could have managed with either an embankment or some sort of iron and stone viaduct at Ribblehead, and it was cheaper than the stone and brick one they built they would have gone for the cheaper alternative.   I grew up watching the S & C and loved the line but if a modern cheaper alternative in concrete and steel to the existing viaduct, was the only means of keeping the line open (And only if) , I would have helped press the plunger to demolish the current viaduct.   Perhaps the residents of Steventon should try and have the same breadth of vision that IKB had.

 

Jamie

That is a gross misinterpretation of Brunel. In all my years of studying  Brunel's work, I've never seen any reference to him seeking economy in construction or operation. Yes, he wanted a main line that worked and worked well and was better than anything anyone else was building  - and he wanted it to look good. No, he wanted it to look great! He coined the name GREAT Western Railway and he called it 'the finest work in England.' The fact that over time, so much of that fine work has been destroyed in the name of progress is what has lent greater importance to what little is left. The bridge at Steventon may be a minor structure but Brunel was a man of detail and while one of his minions might have designed the bridge in question, there's no doubt it would have had Brunel's attention. It would be interesting to know how this bridge was graded in the Railtrack/English Heritage document produced some years ago , which examined every structure on the route of proposed electrification, recorded their relative significance and the degree to which they were or were not expendable. Sadly, I no longer have access to that document. Good on the people of Steventon! The right to protect our surroundings is important and needs to be exercised. Electrification has been such a disaster to 'the finest work in England' because, unlike Brunel, no one paid any attention to aesthetics - nor it seems to making something that works well and is economical to build!

 

[locoholic]

22 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

That is a gross misinterpretation of Brunel. In all my years of studying  Brunel's work, I've never seen any reference to him seeking economy in construction or operation. Yes, he wanted a main line that worked and worked well and was better than anything anyone else was building  - and he wanted it to look good. No, he wanted it to look great! He coined the name GREAT Western Railway and he called it 'the finest work in England.' The fact that over time, so much of that fine work has been destroyed in the name of progress is what has lent greater importance to what little is left. The bridge at Steventon may be a minor structure but Brunel was a man of detail and while one of his minions might have designed the bridge in question, there's no doubt it would have had Brunel's attention. It would be interesting to know how this bridge was graded in the Railtrack/English Heritage document produced some years ago , which examined every structure on the route of proposed electrification, recorded their relative significance and the degree to which they were or were not expendable. Sadly, I no longer have access to that document. Good on the people of Steventon! The right to protect our surroundings is important and needs to be exercised. Electrification has been such a disaster to 'the finest work in England' because, unlike Brunel, no one paid any attention to aesthetics - nor it seems to making something that works well and is economical to build!

 

I don't think you would have such a rosy view of IKB if you had been a GWR shareholder who watched as the pathetic locomotives that he initially saddled the GWR with failed to run the service properly. I also don't believe that he would have any truck with sentimentality when progress was being adversely affected, as it undoubtedly is at Steventon. Sadly, democracy means that aesthetics come a poor second to functionality now, but that's not really Network Rail's fault.

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

That is a gross misinterpretation of Brunel. In all my years of studying  Brunel's work, I've never seen any reference to him seeking economy in construction or operation. Yes, he wanted a main line that worked and worked well and was better than anything anyone else was building  - and he wanted it to look good. No, he wanted it to look great! He coined the name GREAT Western Railway and he called it 'the finest work in England.' The fact that over time, so much of that fine work has been destroyed in the name of progress is what has lent greater importance to what little is left. The bridge at Steventon may be a minor structure but Brunel was a man of detail and while one of his minions might have designed the bridge in question, there's no doubt it would have had Brunel's attention. It would be interesting to know how this bridge was graded in the Railtrack/English Heritage document produced some years ago , which examined every structure on the route of proposed electrification, recorded their relative significance and the degree to which they were or were not expendable. Sadly, I no longer have access to that document. Good on the people of Steventon! The right to protect our surroundings is important and needs to be exercised. Electrification has been such a disaster to 'the finest work in England' because, unlike Brunel, no one paid any attention to aesthetics - nor it seems to making something that works well and is economical to build!

 

 

A study of the man himself shows that Brunel was a man always keen on pushing the technical boundaries of what was possible and always receptive to the latest engineering thinking, documents also show that he didn't mind upsetting the perceived wisdom of what was aesthetically pleasing - plenty of contemporary folk were aghast at the wanton destruction railways and their structures made to the natural beauty of the surroundings.

 

As such there is no doubt that were he around in recent times, Brunel would wholeheartedly support the electrification of the GWML and the demolition + reconstruction of the infrastructure to cope.

 

About the only thing which holds up to scrutiny in your statement is the fact that were Brunel to be in charge, the OLE might have looked slightly better - but even then you need to remember that a lot of the 'bulkiness' of the OLE currently installed comes down to the fact that it needs to be strong enough to cope with multiple pantographs up running at 140mph - something the flimsy stuff installed on the ECML,, MML not to a lesser extent the WCML cannot.

 

Finally the British have an annoying tenancy to demand nothing ever changes in the world, and while this attitude is what has given us listed buildings, scheduled ancient monuments and even a thriving Heritage / museum scheme, preserving everything things in aspic forever does not make for sound economics nor even quality of life. I'm sure some would love t revoke the smoking ban to 'save' the traditional English pub - yet its quite clear the health benefits from the ban massively outweigh any economic hardship which resulted. The Bridge at Stevension is quite clearly compromised by the concrete strengthening beams added to the non railway arches in the 1970s so claims that it is an 'original Brunel structure are bogus and I'm sure there are plenty of other Brunel era bridges along the GWML far more deserving of retention than this one.

[woodenhead]

Great Britain, the world's museum, people come from all over the world to see how quaint our villages are and how we still remember our once proud empire.

 

Watched an interesting pice yesterday on how our sea based empire was doomed by the railways as it allowed those in the heartlands to dominate the world.

 

Back to this bridge, is it in a marginal seat by any chance?

Edited March 3, 2019 by woodenhead
Word correction

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

That is a gross misinterpretation of Brunel. In all my years of studying  Brunel's work, I've never seen any reference to him seeking economy in construction or operation. Yes, he wanted a main line that worked and worked well and was better than anything anyone else was building  - and he wanted it to look good. No, he wanted it to look great! He coined the name GREAT Western Railway and he called it 'the finest work in England.' The fact that over time, so much of that fine work has been destroyed in the name of progress is what has lent greater importance to what little is left. The bridge at Steventon may be a minor structure but Brunel was a man of detail and while one of his minions might have designed the bridge in question, there's no doubt it would have had Brunel's attention. It would be interesting to know how this bridge was graded in the Railtrack/English Heritage document produced some years ago , which examined every structure on the route of proposed electrification, recorded their relative significance and the degree to which they were or were not expendable. Sadly, I no longer have access to that document. Good on the people of Steventon! The right to protect our surroundings is important and needs to be exercised. Electrification has been such a disaster to 'the finest work in England' because, unlike Brunel, no one paid any attention to aesthetics - nor it seems to making something that works well and is economical to build!

 

I'm sure if IKB had been able to build an electric railway with 125mph+ capable trains, he would. If he had been able to, would there have been a Steventon bridge? Would there have been much of the route we know today? Would there have been a Box Tunnel?

Maybe, but probably not as we know them.

[caradoc]

The magnificent works of Brunel's Great Western Railway are of course well known and celebrated; The superb alignment and minimal gradients, structures such as Paddington station, the bridge at Maidenhead, Box Tunnel,  the train shed at Temple Meads and the Royal Albert Bridge, among others. However, in all the literature I have ever read about Brunel and the GWR, the overbridge at Steventon has not been mentioned, not once, not ever.

 

If this bridge cannot be demolished, what is the solution to the ridiculous situation that now exists on the electrified 125mph main line linking London with some of Britain's major cities ? I agree with the views expressed above; If overhead electrification had existed in Brunel's day he would not have hesitated, for one moment, to demolish the bridge at Steventon (and anything else) which got in the way.

[Jonboy]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Great Britain, the world's museum, people come from all over the world to see how quaint our villages are and how we still remember our once proud empire.

 

Watched an interesting pice yesterday on how our sea based empire was doomed by the railways as it allowed those in the heartlands to dominate the world.

 

Back to this bridge, is it in a marginal seat by any chance?

 

Nah a tub of lard would get voted into our seat if it had a blue label....I suspect the local councils are simply kicking the can down the road until it can be passed up to a tribunal/secretary of state to make the unpopular decision.

[figworthy]

On 02/03/2019 at 15:20, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

If you are familiar with that part of Oxfordshire (aka Old Berkshire), you will know that war has been raging there for about 15 years now over a project to build a new reservoir

 

Much longer than that, the plans were first floated in the early 90s

[D1059]

13 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Much longer than that, the plans were first floated in the early 90s

 

Interspersed over the years with at least 2 attempts to put an airport twice the size of Heathrow there. and also, the proposal to build the Oxford Garden Village (30000+ houses) on the same site - you get the feeling that TPTB won't give up until the whole area is concreted over, or flooded. 

[corneliuslundie]

I have the impression that at the present rate of "progress" there won't be much of Berkshire left to build airports, reservoirs or anything else on in a few decades, so keen are the local authorities  - aided of course by the builders - to fill every field with houses.

Roye England was right about the need to record it in miniature while it still existed.

Back to Steventon, i wonder what will happen when local traffic has become so heavy that the bridge can no longer take it.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/02/2019 at 23:34, royaloak said:

Nobody has provided any proof that IKB had anything to do with the bridge except it was built around the time he was busy on the GWR route so he might have seen the plans.

Its just a bog standard arched bridge with nothing special about it, well apart from the fact it is in very poor condition and has been strengthened in the past and had lots of its original brickwork replaced.

I believe that IKB might have signed the drawings - but of course that doesn't mean he actually designed the bridge.

 

However its purported historical interest is a question in itself.  I have never seen a picture (engraving or photo) of a broad gauge train passing under this bridge or indeed any old photos of a train passing under it in early standard gauge days.  This in complete contrast to the Relief Lines overbridge at Twyford which features in at least one photo of a broad gauge train passing under it and which is still there completely unaltered apart from raising the height of the parapets.  I believe the Twyford bridge doesn't  date from the opening of the railway having I understand replaced a temporary timber bridge (does the Steventon bridge date from the opening of the line?).  

 

Similarly west of Swindon there are bridges which are very similar to that at Steventon although most have I think be strengthened in the past in a way similar to the concrete bracing at Steventon and all have now either been rebuilt or have had substantial concrete strengthening of the wing arches concurrent with the electrification.  There are of course numerous other overbridges of Brunellian parentage elsewhere on former GWR and other original Company's lines still surviving.

 

The Steventon bridge has probably been saved from more rapid deterioration due to various past strengthening and rev building works but even more so due to the construction of the bypass which at a stroke took away the vast majority of the traffic which used the bridge when it was part of the A34.  But inevitably it is an ageing brick built structure with maintenance needs and the road over it has again become busy which will hasten deterioration.  So at some time in the future it is obviously going to require either complete rebuilding. or further major repairs and strengthening which - as with the concrete bracing - could well further destroy any historic relevance that might be claimed for it.

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have the impression that at the present rate of "progress" there won't be much of Berkshire left to build airports, reservoirs or anything else on in a few decades, so keen are the local authorities  - aided of course by the builders - to fill every field with houses.

Roye England was right about the need to record it in miniature while it still existed.

Back to Steventon, i wonder what will happen when local traffic has become so heavy that the bridge can no longer take it.

Jonathan

What has happened around Didcot and between there and Harwell, Steventon, Long Whittenham, and Wallingford over the past 20 odd years is almost beyond belief to those of us who knew those routes as country roads.  Acre after acre of productive agricultural land has vanished under housing and supermarkets presumably because in futirew we will all be expected to eat brick dust instead of the fruit the Harwell area was once known for.  Every time I pass through enroute from the Wallingford direction towards Wantage it seems another field has been left to turn into wasteland before the bulldozers move in.

 

The only good thing which can be said for it is that if house are being built there at least they're not being built in the corner of Oxfordshire where I live (although we're getting plenty anyway - on dairy grassland so we'll presumably be putting brick dust in out tea instead of milk.

 

There is however one amusing aside to all of this.  The only smokeless zone in Oxfordshire which I can trace off the Council's website is in Didcot - on the opposite side of the Avoiding Line from, and directly opposite, the longer of the two GWS site's running lines.  It covers the area visible at the right of my picture I have posted below - the red roofed houses you can see being within the, hmm,  Smokeless  Zone.

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

What has happened around Didcot and between there and Harwell, Steventon, Long Whittenham, and Wallingford over the past 20 odd years is almost beyond belief to those of us who knew those routes as country roads.  Acre after acre of productive agricultural land has vanished under housing and supermarkets presumably because in futirew we will all be expected to eat brick dust instead of the fruit the Harwell area was once known for.  Every time I pass through enroute from the Wallingford direction towards Wantage it seems another field has been left to turn into wasteland before the bulldozers move in.

 

The only good thing which can be said for it is that if house are being built there at least they're not being built in the corner of Oxfordshire where I live (although we're getting plenty anyway - on dairy grassland so we'll presumably be putting brick dust in out tea instead of milk.

 

 

So what do you propose to do with all the youngsters in the South East who are unable to find a place to purchase / rent at a sensible price? I note from previous posts that you are fortunate to own quite a sizeable property and it is similarly implied that your children have not struggled to set up homes.

 

Thats not to suggest you do not deserve the property you have - or that you should be able to enjoy the fruits of a long and successful career - BUT It is important not to give in to the 'well I'm alright so screw anyone who comes after me' mentality seen in places across the SE.

 

As I noted earlier with respect the the monster that is 'high house prices', people need places to live in reasonable commuting distance to the place they work. Driving up house prices because it makes more profits for existing homeowners, banks and developers as has happened in the SE over the past few decades has left a whole swathe of the population unable to secure a decent future.

 

While I understand, and agree to an extent with the thinking that the SE is becoming overcrowded with far too much development*, it is important to note that said developments are a direct result of decades of Governmental polices that have skewed economic activity to focus on London centric activity - thus meaning more and more folk are needing to reside in the SE.

 

Thus rather than moaning at all this extra housing being built folk should pay close attention to their voting patterns in General elections over the past decades - as with much else the current housing / development situation in the SE is a direct result of the moaners / objectors choosing to elect Governments who have directly accelerated it by their unbalanced economic policies / ideology with respect to the UK as a whole. The saying 'you reap what you sow' still applies....

 

*(several large new developments are underway / about to get going near me with zero infrastructure improvements to cope - including 600 new houses just off the congested Pease Pottage M23 / A23 / A264 junction, Getting on for 1000 in various developments inside Crawley, 3500 in my hometown, 2500 off the A264 between Crawley and Faygate), .

[Siberian Snooper]

Not long now then, before Horsham and Crawley are joined up then! It started before I left in the early 70's and they have been slowly, but surely been closing the gap.

 

 

[jamie92208]

Does anyone know how the further extensions of electrification are getting on.   IIRC Newbury is now wired and the main line to Swindon. Is Parkway connected up yet. Also what sort of progress is being made the other side of the Severn Tunnel.

 

Jamie

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Acre after acre of productive agricultural land has vanished under housing and supermarkets presumably because in futirew we will all be expected to eat brick dust instead of the fruit the Harwell area was once known for.  Every time I pass through enroute from the Wallingford direction towards Wantage it seems another field has been left to turn into wasteland before the bulldozers move in.

 

 

 

Don't worry. According to the US Ambassador, we won't need any of those fields in future?

 

[corneliuslundie]

"While I understand, and agree to an extent with the thinking that the SE is becoming overcrowded with far too much development*, it is important to note that said developments are a direct result of decades of Governmental polices that have skewed economic activity to focus on London centric activity - thus meaning more and more folk are needing to reside in the SE."

Exactly. I sympathise with those seeking somewhere to live. Even in "rural" Norfolk my daughter and son in la cannot afford to buy a house.

If we had the jobs, I would say come to mid Wales. Houses in o street for under 100k - albeit they need about a quarter of that spent on them to improve insulation, install central heating etc. But no jobs, or very few. So lots of pensioners like me. On the other ha d if we had the jobs house prices would be higher.

That is also the result of the government policies discussed by Phil - and it is even worse in many ex industrial areas.

By the way, we are promised new trains sometime in the next decade. But of course Cardiff gets them first - if only because they are currently plagued with Pacers so their need is actually greater.

Which illustrates partly the crux of the problem. whatever governments go the seat of government draws in businesses, support industries, commercial headquarters etc to supplement the civil servants in making the place grow and housing more expensive.

Jonathan

 

[Zomboid]

The housing market in South East of England is insane. It's beyond me how anyone can afford to live in places like London, Oxford & Guildford. My wife and I are both professionals with above average earnings, but even the horrible parts of London are laughably out of our reach. How the people who do live there manage it I really can't understand. Maybe they only eat super noodles and baked beans.

 

So we both have about an hour on the train each way every day from a recently built housing estate, fuelling the demand for building on fields and the like.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The housing market in South East of England is insane. It's beyond me how anyone can afford to live in places like London, Oxford & Guildford. My wife and I are both professionals with above average earnings, but even the horrible parts of London are laughably out of our reach. How the people who do live there manage it I really can't understand. Maybe they only eat super noodles and baked beans.

 

So we both have about an hour on the train each way every day from a recently built housing estate, fuelling the demand for building on fields and the like.

One of my fears about the promotion of ever faster and more frequent transport is that'll exacerbate that issue even further. Make it viable to commute from further out and you'll end up with people having to live further out whilst conversely it becomes more economic for business to further centralise. The easier it is to travel the easier it is for the money to go towards the more desirable places and push up the prices in them. Of course there are benefits too to easier travel, going back to when someone first worked out sitting on the back of a horse but I do wonder if we're past the optimum. Economically we're left with little choice though.

[D1059]

19 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

*(several large new developments are underway / about to get going near me with zero infrastructure improvements to cope 

 

And the section in bold sums up the problem - either no extra infrastructure to cope with the extra population foisted on already overcrowded areas, or laughably inadequate provisions (a local example being the addition of one new set of pedestrian lights as a solution to (already existing) traffic congestion, plus the addition to hundreds of new homes being built in the Abingdon - Steventon corridor. Guess what - it hasn't worked, quelle surprise

Edited March 5, 2019 by D1059

[The Stationmaster]

Living in a town which probably boasts the highest percentage of overnight on street parked Porsches and BMWs in the county - if not a far wider area - part of the reason for house price rises in the south east  is fairly obvious.  There are people prepared to take on extremely high mortgages, whether they can afford them or not.  The wider reason for house prices is also relatively simple to trace as well - not just pure demand based on number of people but increasing prices fuelled by cheap money, I wonder how many people would still be buying houses if their mortgage interest rate was at the 15% some of us we're paying not all that many years back?

 

The main thing the cheap money has done is fuel price increases, even when demand driven by population levels, was not rising at an equivalent pace.  True the magnet of London and the south east is there but it has been for many years - and long before we saw meteoric rises in house prices.  However one thing which is novel is the reduction in rail journey times since the arrival of HSTs and that has spread London commuting, in particular over a much greater area and that probably has driven house price increases but, again, prices can only rise where there is cheap money to fuel them and when mortgage salary multipliers are eased out.

 

I live in a town where local youngsters, even in good jobs cannot afford to buy a flat let alone a terraced cottaged.  But all the recent new housing in our area has sold for prices in excess of £800,000 rather than achievable prices.  Not far from us is an office building which has been converted into flats - the cheapest is about £380,000, and the sellers are offering 'help to buy'.    Similarly there are terraced cottages here which when i was a lad at the school opposite them were rented out at 2/6d a week - mainly to pensioners of the company which then owned them.  they're long sold off and you won't get one for less than c,£330,000 although they probably now all have indoor toilets and bathrooms.