GWML Electification

[icn]

On 08/10/2023 at 12:39, Siberian Snooper said:

All this battery technology is wonderful until it catches fire and can't be put out. I overheard a conversation about batteries and them catching fire, several fire departments are investing in water tanks and Hiabs because they can't deal with it any other way, pick the vehicle up and dunk it. I have no idea how you manage to get strops under the vehicle to lift it.

 

I wouldn't want to be on a train where a battery caught fire, there's no where to go, at least until the train comes to a stop.

 

Our local council are urging us not to put batteries in the bins because they have had one or two catch fire, when they compress the rubbish it damages the battery casing and up it goes.

 

 

Same for the diesel technology - wonderful until it catches fire.

 

It is true that batteries have some challenges of their own, but the data is pretty clear: battery vehicles are less fire prone, and the tools to put out such fires are available (they're becoming more and more widespread across fire services internationally). Water tanks are far from the only solution. The real issue with battery vehicles is uninformed and political animosity as opposed to real fundamental issues with them.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, icn said:

Same for the diesel technology - wonderful until it catches fire.

 

It is true that batteries have some challenges of their own, but the data is pretty clear: battery vehicles are less fire prone, and the tools to put out such fires are available (they're becoming more and more widespread across fire services internationally). Water tanks are far from the only solution. The real issue with battery vehicles is uninformed and political animosity as opposed to real fundamental issues with them.

Pardon!!  Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished - the chemical nature of the battery is such that as ir decomposes due to fire it generates oxygen.  So you can blanket such a fire with whatever will withstand the heat of the fire but it won't extinguish it because it is providing its own fuel.    Even blanketng it with foam won't stop the fire burning although in sufficient quantities it might possibly contain the heat enough to prevent the firs spreading.

 

All of which is one reason why the parking of EVs in multistorey etc car parks is prohibited in Germany  (and sensibly ought to be similarly prohibited here). Welcome to Liverpool and Luton Airpotrt.

[DY444]

21 hours ago, icn said:

It is true that batteries have some challenges of their own, but the data is pretty clear: battery vehicles are less fire prone, and the tools to put out such fires are available (they're becoming more and more widespread across fire services internationally). Water tanks are far from the only solution. The real issue with battery vehicles is uninformed and political animosity as opposed to real fundamental issues with them.

 

Quite the reverse, the real issue with battery vehicles is a refusal of their advocates to admit there are downsides and risks.  The argument that battery vehicles are less fire prone is a classic example of this in action because, irrespective of whether it is a true or false statement, it is totally irrelevant and therefore a classic case of obfuscation.  As for the idea that there is political animosity, that is a myth.  Before Luton or the Freemantle Highway, I had a lengthy dialogue with my MP about the need for regulation and infrastructure to mitigate an EV thermal runaway in enclosed spaces such as underground car parks, ferries etc.  Couldn't have been less interested if he'd tried and went full fingers in the ears, head in the sand mode.

 

There are two real issues:  firstly the consequences should a fire start are far more serious, and secondly the rise in ambient air temperature required to initiate a battery thermal runaway is relatively low.  So let's say a fire-prone (by your logic) ICE is parked next to an EV and catches fire.  There is a very high probability that the rise in local air temperature from the ICE fire will cause a thermal runaway in the adjacent EV's battery.  Then you have a far more more intense fire than the original one, a fire which generates extremely toxic smoke and a fire which cannot be fought by conventional means.

 

Oh and nobody has satisfactorily explained how a thermal runaway in a class 777 battery under Liverpool would be contained.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the ORR's obsession with avoiding third rail extensions has blinded them to the need for proper risk assessments of the alternatives. 

[icn]

On 14/10/2023 at 19:00, The Stationmaster said:

Pardon!!  Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished - the chemical nature of the battery is such that as ir decomposes due to fire it generates oxygen.  So you can blanket such a fire with whatever will withstand the heat of the fire but it won't extinguish it because it is providing its own fuel.    Even blanketng it with foam won't stop the fire burning although in sufficient quantities it might possibly contain the heat enough to prevent the firs spreading.

 

All of which is one reason why the parking of EVs in multistorey etc car parks is prohibited in Germany  (and sensibly ought to be similarly prohibited here). Welcome to Liverpool and Luton Airpotrt.

That's why they don't blanket such vehicles, they use appropriate tools to extinguish them. That's first hand information from multiple firemen I know.

 

Your second paragraph is highly misleading. A few garages have done so, it's very much the exception - because it's plain and simply a nonsensical approach.

 

The fact remains: extinguishing battery fires requires different techniques, but most of the criticism is misplaced and in fact misinformed. Here's a balanced take on it: https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/au/news/auto-motor/are-electric-cars-a-major-fire-risk-459605.aspx

 

And that infamous car transporter fire recently? The cause of the fire is unknown, but as of yet there's no evidence that it was due to batteries - apparently all the electric car decks were completely unharmed.

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/10/2023 at 13:55, icn said:

That's why they don't blanket such vehicles, they use appropriate tools to extinguish them. That's first hand information from multiple firemen I know.

 

Your second paragraph is highly misleading. A few garages have done so, it's very much the exception - because it's plain and simply a nonsensical approach.

 

The fact remains: extinguishing battery fires requires different techniques, but most of the criticism is misplaced and in fact misinformed. Here's a balanced take on it: https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/au/news/auto-motor/are-electric-cars-a-major-fire-risk-459605.aspx

 

And that infamous car transporter fire recently? The cause of the fire is unknown, but as of yet there's no evidence that it was due to batteries - apparently all the electric car decks were completely unharmed.

What appropriate tools?      The only one  that I can find mnetioned  is 1,125 litres of water per minute (if you can get that volume of supply) and even that does not guarantee that the fire will not re-ignite once the water is turned off.  Usual recommended UK method is to let theh fire burn out while containing the area to prevent spread of fire.

 

Fires on ships area very different thing/. Anything burning hot enough can lead to structural damage to the vessel plus smoke damage is inevitable unless the fire can be fully ventilated (which is difficult on most vehicle transporters with enclosed superstructures).  So fires at sea aren't really comparable with those occurring on land.

 

 

[jjb1970]

Fire risks associated with EVs is a huge concern in the vehicle carrier and Ro-Ro shipping sectors and at the moment there is no consensus on the most effective way to manage fire risks. IMO and regulators have been developing provisions for the SOLAS Convention and related instruments such as the FSS Code but there are still significant gaps. This is also true for battery power systems for the ships themselves. Most controls are risk based (i.e. do a risk assessment and tell the Flag Administration and Class how you will manage risk) which to be frank is effectively the same as regulators and class saying 'we don't know yet' to the question of how best to manage fire risk. Of course there are also risks with hydro-carbon fuels, the difference is we have manay decades of experience and a vast accumulated body of expertise which informs risk controls, crew training, ship design, fire fighting procedures etc.

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-67905475

more problems 

[rodent279]

Overhead cables. Arrgh! One of those terms that bug me, like "train track", "arriving into"......

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/01/2024 at 08:59, ess1uk said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-67905475

more problems 

Hot on the heels of 'upgrading' work on the ohle - again.

[jamie92208]

I'm not sure if this has been posted anywhere before but this video about some of the design decisions that produced the OHLE Series 1 equipment used on the GWML is quite interesting. 

 

Jamie

[Peter Kazmierczak]

That was really, really interesting. thanks for posting it, Jamie.