GWML Electification

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Living in a town which probably boasts the highest percentage of overnight on street parked Porsches and BMWs in the county - if not a far wider area - part of the reason for house price rises in the south east  is fairly obvious.  There are people prepared to take on extremely high mortgages, whether they can afford them or not.  The wider reason for house prices is also relatively simple to trace as well - not just pure demand based on number of people but increasing prices fuelled by cheap money, I wonder how many people would still be buying houses if their mortgage interest rate was at the 15% some of us we're paying not all that many years back?

 

The main thing the cheap money has done is fuel price increases, even when demand driven by population levels, was not rising at an equivalent pace.  True the magnet of London and the south east is there but it has been for many years - and long before we saw meteoric rises in house prices.  However one thing which is novel is the reduction in rail journey times since the arrival of HSTs and that has spread London commuting, in particular over a much greater area and that probably has driven house price increases but, again, prices can only rise where there is cheap money to fuel them and when mortgage salary multipliers are eased out.

 

I live in a town where local youngsters, even in good jobs cannot afford to buy a flat let alone a terraced cottaged.  But all the recent new housing in our area has sold for prices in excess of £800,000 rather than achievable prices.  Not far from us is an office building which has been converted into flats - the cheapest is about £380,000, and the sellers are offering 'help to buy'.    Similarly there are terraced cottages here which when i was a lad at the school opposite them were rented out at 2/6d a week - mainly to pensioners of the company which then owned them.  they're long sold off and you won't get one for less than c,£330,000 although they probably now all have indoor toilets and bathrooms.

 

Which brings us back to the unhealthy obsession politicians  (and some of our fellow citizens thanks to the 'have some shares and start playing the markets' type ethos pushed by Thatcherite economics) have with the financial services sector.

 

Staking a countries long term well being on city spivs with minimal regulation was never going to turn out well in the long term - but to a Politician* only interested in the upcoming parliamentary term why should they care? particularly as they will be ample opportunity to end up with a few juicy directorships and stuff at the end of it)

 

* While there may well be a selection of conscientious and hard working MPS out there - far too many are only in Westminster because they happen to have a certain coloured rosette pinned on them at election time....

[dibber25]

Sorry, but what has this got to do with GWML electrification? It also seems to contravene all the rules about keeping politics out of this forum. The subject here is what is done about a bridge which was listed as worthy of preservation when electrification was first being considered but which has now been found not to suit the convenience of the electrification engineers. Some posters seem to be using it as an excuse to show off their personal political bigotry. (CJL)

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think we established that the bridge got listed as part of a job lot in Steventon rather than as a result of it being looked at in the context of electrification.

 

We can not, however much we want to, completely ignore that politics is part of the process that determines what sort of railways/ roads etc. that we get. But we can keep it non-party. Let's face it, no UK political party has a good record on infrastructure.

[HillsideDepot]

18 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Does anyone know how the further extensions of electrification are getting on.   IIRC Newbury is now wired and the main line to Swindon. Is Parkway connected up yet. Also what sort of progress is being made the other side of the Severn Tunnel.

 

Jamie

 

Yes, Newbury is wired and EMUs are operating the local services which terminate there. West of England IETs are also using the "juice" to and from the designated change over point (not sure where that is). Bedwyn services are still Turbos as far as I know, although the reversing siding has been lengthened for 5-car IETs there are problems with the images from their bodyside CCTV cameras which make them unusable for Driver Only Operation at the moment (the 2nd member of staff is there to sell tickets, and is not trained to undertake Guard's duties).

The mainline is now electrified from Swindon to Bristol Parkway and on to the depot at Stoke Gifford (although I've seen elsewhere that not all depot roads are live) with trains running on the AC since the very end of 2018. I've seen drivers reporting that they have to ease off on the climb through Chipping Sodbury Tunnel as the IETs in electric mode can exceed the 120mph limit, whereas an HST is still powering to get there.

 

Wootton Bassett to the end of the wires at Cocklebury (between Chippenham and the former level crossing at Langley Burrell) was due to go live a few weeks back, but preparatory work the previous weekend was cancelled due to snow. No new date has been announced. Locally we're wondering where the pans will be rising and lowering and whether it will be in a easily viewable location (although I'm sure the novelty of watching it will soon wear off!)

 

Work seems to be progressing well in South Wales from the snippets I've been able to collate.

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Sorry, but what has this got to do with GWML electrification? It also seems to contravene all the rules about keeping politics out of this forum. The subject here is what is done about a bridge which was listed as worthy of preservation when electrification was first being considered but which has now been found not to suit the convenience of the electrification engineers. Some posters seem to be using it as an excuse to show off their personal political bigotry. (CJL)

 

I readily admit this post has nothing to do with GWML electrification - it is a response to various comments by folk moaning about the large amounts of housebuilding going on in Oxfordshire / the SE.

 

As is often the case on RMweb, threads can occasionally go off topic and this is one of those occasions.

 

It is also not 'political bigotry' to observe that things like the need for large scale housebuilding in the SE is heavily influenced by the economic policy ALL governments of the last 30 years which has resulted in large numbers of jobs lost in the northern  reaches of the UK and an over reliance on service  financial industries which are largely biased towards London and the SE - its a statement of fact!

 

 

[dibber25]

One man's 'fact' is another man's opinion.

[phil-b259]

45 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

One man's 'fact' is another man's opinion.

 

Not when said facts are actually official Government employment statistics as broken down by region, industry sectors etc.

 

However this is all unrelated to the GWML electrification thread and if you wish to discuss the matter further then feel free to start another thread.

 

Meanwhile,as the saying goes "we reuturn to our regular programming...."

[dibber25]

Absolutely!

[Banger Blue]

7 hours ago, HillsideDepot said:

…Newbury is wired and EMUs are operating the local services which terminate there. West of England IETs are also using the "juice" to and from the designated change over point (not sure where that is). Bedwyn services are still Turbos as far as I know, although the reversing siding has been lengthened for 5-car IETs there are problems with the images from their bodyside CCTV cameras which make them unusable for Driver Only Operation at the moment……

 

On-Topic:

Changeover Point is near Newbury Racecourse. Like it is at Didcot, Up trains can pan up in the Station when stopping there.

The problem with the IET’s CCTV cameras isn’t the image per se, it’s just that the camera lens screen somehow gets covered in lots of crud, there’s no shield / deflectors on them unlike the 387s for example.

 

Off Topic:

As for house prices, a colleague of mine was looking at abodes ‘oop North’. He saw a 5 bed detached house with double garage, massive garden etc all for in the region of £250,000. (Somewhere in Humberside IIRC)

 

I then showed him a very similar house, close to me, which is on the market for a cool £1,250,000! 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I put this in "Wanted". But perhaps more likely to be seen if I put it here....

 

I am looking for advice from someone with a good working knowledge of UK rail electrification and, in particular, the connections between the National Grid and the railway.

 

This is a potential business proposition and could lead to a paid consultancy role. PM me if interested.

[The Stationmaster]

Handy news for those looking to electrify a railway - the latest in NR tender documents is offering for sale as scrap c.20 tonnes of assorted electrification masts and booms, totalling 25 items.  I know one member of this site happens to use a railway station in the vicinity of the site of this material which lies, brand new and unused, close to the GWML on what will one day be on a Crossrail route.

 

Perhaps that nice Mr Grayling could tell us why stuff like this was dumped when the project was incomplete?

[Chris116]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

...... 

Perhaps that nice Mr Grayling could tell us why stuff like this was dumped when the project was incomplete?

He probably would not be able to answer the question, due to being both a politician and, based on his efforts so far, a fool. 

[lmsforever]

Reading how the DFT have completely cocked what should have been a show piece project by idiotic specs lack of detailed info no understanding of what was needed in way of infrastructure.There needs to be a complete root and branch change in the way decisions are made when rail work is planned ,sadly it boils down to politics and the future could very nasty so batten the hatches down!

[black and decker boy]

15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Handy news for those looking to electrify a railway - the latest in NR tender documents is offering for sale as scrap c.20 tonnes of assorted electrification masts and booms, totalling 25 items.  I know one member of this site happens to use a railway station in the vicinity of the site of this material which lies, brand new and unused, close to the GWML on what will one day be on a Crossrail route.

 

Perhaps that nice Mr Grayling could tell us why stuff like this was dumped when the project was incomplete?

This isn't the first such tender, alot more 'new OLE' was sold for scrap last year.

[jim.snowdon]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Handy news for those looking to electrify a railway - the latest in NR tender documents is offering for sale as scrap c.20 tonnes of assorted electrification masts and booms, totalling 25 items.  I know one member of this site happens to use a railway station in the vicinity of the site of this material which lies, brand new and unused, close to the GWML on what will one day be on a Crossrail route.

 

Perhaps that nice Mr Grayling could tell us why stuff like this was dumped when the project was incomplete?

20 tonnes is a very small amount in the greater scale of the Crossrail/GWML projects, and if I think it is where The SM is hinting, is is quite a small collection of odds and ends, some of which might have been the result of structures being replaced.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

14 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Reading how the DFT have completely cocked what should have been a show piece project by idiotic specs lack of detailed info no understanding of what was needed in way of infrastructure.There needs to be a complete root and branch change in the way decisions are made when rail work is planned ,sadly it boils down to politics and the future could very nasty so batten the hatches down!

So no liability on the part of the designers for taking design conservatism to new heights, all, of course, within the boundaries of NR standards?

 

Jim

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

So no liability on the part of the designers for taking design conservatism to new heights, all, of course, within the boundaries of NR standards?

 

Jim

If I remember some of Uncle Rogers ramblings correctly the design work was done to the spec provided to the designers so that fault lies with whoever wrote the spec.   If that was done by a risk averse consultant with little practical experience of the railway, it's a case of getting what you pay for.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

51 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

If I remember some of Uncle Rogers ramblings correctly the design work was done to the spec provided to the designers so that fault lies with whoever wrote the spec.   If that was done by a risk averse consultant with little practical experience of the railway, it's a case of getting what you pay for.

 

Jamie

The ohle was designed in Switzerland - hence the rather Swiss look to some of it I presume although some of the structures look remarkably BR Mk1 (but are constructed in a slightly different way and are of larger section material).  And reportedly all the way through comment has come from official sources that teh whole lot is designed to withstand higher wind seeds as well as higher rail speeds.

 

Some of it of course is far and away much simpler than anything which has preceded it in 25kv electrification in Britain with considerable reduction in components compared with previous BR designs.  What has grown are masts (In girth, and in many places in height) and some of the booms are massive (e.g Didcot) for whatever reason while other booms are pretty neat although using larger sections than the comparable SBB booms.  Although oddly the massive booms at Didcot look to me to be no larger than some in the approaches to Paddington which have been there for the past 25 years with little or no comment.

[Edwin_m]

The GWML generally uses twin-track cantilevers either side of the formation, except where lack of space in the middle forces use of a portal as is more traditional for four-track lines.  On a portal the other leg limits the bending moments both horizontally in the vertical mast (from the tension in the wires and from wind loading) and the vertically into the base (from the weight of the boom and equipment).  So this form of structure is inherently going to be heavier despite the gap in the middle.  Where portals are used the result, to my eye at least, is much neater.  The other aesthetic issue to me is the use of multiple different types of structure instead of long runs of similar ones giving a sort of up-and-down ragged look. 

 

Photos of the current Midland electrification mostly show the use of numerous apparently identical TTCs looking much more like the traditional BR lattice structure, interrupted from time to time by a solid vertical which I assume will be an anchor point.  This doesn't have to meet the same requirements as GW but must still withstand pairs of pantographs at 125mph, and hopefully has learned some lessons.  It is claimed costs are much more under control although I don't recally seeing any published figures. 

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

The GWML generally uses twin-track cantilevers either side of the formation, except where lack of space in the middle forces use of a portal as is more traditional for four-track lines.  On a portal the other leg limits the bending moments both horizontally in the vertical mast (from the tension in the wires and from wind loading) and the vertically into the base (from the weight of the boom and equipment).  So this form of structure is inherently going to be heavier despite the gap in the middle.  Where portals are used the result, to my eye at least, is much neater.  The other aesthetic issue to me is the use of multiple different types of structure instead of long runs of similar ones giving a sort of up-and-down ragged look. 

 

Photos of the current Midland electrification mostly show the use of numerous apparently identical TTCs looking much more like the traditional BR lattice structure, interrupted from time to time by a solid vertical which I assume will be an anchor point.  This doesn't have to meet the same requirements as GW but must still withstand pairs of pantographs at 125mph, and hopefully has learned some lessons.  It is claimed costs are much more under control although I don't recally seeing any published figures. 

The  double track bracketed cantilever structures that look like traditional BR lattice structure have also been used on the GWML scheme but they employ metalwork of a slightly larger section  (much larger in the lattice part) and appear to go together in a different way from the earlier BR design.  There is also a balanced cantilever version which is one of the lightest looking of the lot, using what appears to be a smaller size I section beam for the upright with a pair of register arms attached and nothing else except the earth wire.  This seems a very rare design on the GWML scheme  and i've only seen one so far but it is one of the least obtrusive bits of ohle I have ever seen in any country.

[The Stationmaster]

I was at a local quiz night yesterday evening which was also attended by several members of Vale of the White Horse Council.  Including its leader - who happened to win a bottle of win in the raffle so I suggested, not too loudly,  that it might be a good idea to keep it for now and use it to christen a new bridge over the railway at Steventon (I don't think they heard me).  

[jamie92208]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I was at a local quiz night yesterday evening which was also attended by several members of Vale of the White Horse Council.  Including its leader - who happened to win a bottle of win in the raffle so I suggested, not too loudly,  that it might be a good idea to keep it for now and use it to christen a new bridge over the railway at Steventon (I don't think they heard me).  

You obviously have a craving for danger in your life Mike.

 

Jamie

[Nick Gough]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I was at a local quiz night yesterday evening which was also attended by several members of Vale of the White Horse Council.  Including its leader - who happened to win a bottle of win in the raffle so I suggested, not too loudly,  that it might be a good idea to keep it for now and use it to christen a new bridge over the railway at Steventon (I don't think they heard me).  

The wine should be a good vintage by the time its needed.

[andy stroud]

I saw an empty  twelve car class 387 EMU at Swindon station this evening. Not sure how regular these are there. 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, andy stroud said:

I saw an empty  twelve car class 387 EMU at Swindon station this evening. Not sure how regular these are there. 

Very regular at Swindon of course but interesting to hear that one was in the station.