GWML Electification

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, SouthernMafia said:

Timetable change, big day today,was all going well until an axle counter failure at Slough about 06:30, UM shut from Twyford. All the lovely new GWR semi fasts to Padd are not stopping at Twyford and Maidenhead, and Crossrail reduced to half-hourly, lucky punters!

Why does it always happen on an important day!? Media at Reading so no doubt we'll have a report about how badly it's gone for GWR, even thought it's not their timetable that's the problem and it's NR at fault. Sigh.

It's already made the national media with lots of moans on twitter etc.  GWR getting the blame from most of the idiots.

 

However looking at RTT it does look as if services were not thinned as hard as they should have been east of Maidenhead with too many trains still stopping at Taplow and Burnham in particular so the delays were exacerbated when they needn't have been..

[SouthernMafia]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's already made the national media with lots of moans on twitter etc.  GWR getting the blame from most of the idiots.

 

However looking at RTT it does look as if services were not thinned as hard as they should have been east of Maidenhead with too many trains still stopping at Taplow and Burnham in particular so the delays were exacerbated when they needn't have been..

 

Be interesting to see Paul Clifton's report this evening, hopefully he explains it correctly, ie timetable not at fault.

 

I think the reality is they still need to move people and stopping nothing isn't an option, both Twyford and Maidenhead were overcrowded this morning to the extent of NR having to allow something to stop.

Having worked at both stations I can only sympathise for the front line staff who have to deal with the angry punters, who really don't understand why their train has been cancelled, only for it to go flying through non-stop.

 

The contingency plan may have been altered now that TfL run, but this morning's plan just didn't work, on both fronts of keeping Up services moving (I've never seen so many trains stacked up between Twyford and Maidenhead, the 3 aspect signalling doesn't help), and on providing a service to several busy, and vocal passenger stations. I'm sure Mrs May will have had a few texts today !

[Zomboid]

The BBC website are making more of a thing of Northern and TPEs struggles. They mentioned that it was an infrastructure problem on the GWML.

 

Tomorrow is when we might find out if the timetable works, then...

[The Stationmaster]

19 minutes ago, SouthernMafia said:

 

Be interesting to see Paul Clifton's report this evening, hopefully he explains it correctly, ie timetable not at fault.

 

I think the reality is they still need to move people and stopping nothing isn't an option, both Twyford and Maidenhead were overcrowded this morning to the extent of NR having to allow something to stop.

Having worked at both stations I can only sympathise for the front line staff who have to deal with the angry punters, who really don't understand why their train has been cancelled, only for it to go flying through non-stop.

 

The contingency plan may have been altered now that TfL run, but this morning's plan just didn't work, on both fronts of keeping Up services moving (I've never seen so many trains stacked up between Twyford and Maidenhead, the 3 aspect signalling doesn't help), and on providing a service to several busy, and vocal passenger stations. I'm sure Mrs May will have had a few texts today !

The problem isn't so much with Twyford and Maidenhead as they are a reasonable distance apart although still reason to thin things a bit.  The distances between the stations east of Maidenhead are much less so trains don't get any chance at all to build up speed and keep moving if even one an hour happens to be stopping at Taplow and Burnham (especially when you consider both places lie on a number of 'bus routes between Maidenhead and Slough).   slough is inevitably a problem due to heavy passenger numbers causing overtime in calling trains although in the peak the same will happen at Twyford and Maidenhead.

 

A bigger problem is the ludicrously low (90mph) line speed on the Reliefs which inevitably means that trains timed at 125 mph are going to lose time in running even without catching up the one(s) in front.   The other problem - where strategy still strikes me as not being properly though through - is the positioning of running junctions.  The only 'left hand' junctions to get trains off the Up Main between Reading (Kennet Bridge) and Dolphin are at Twyford West and Slough West - if trains can't run on the Main to the latter then there is no alternative to everything running up the Relief from Twyford West to Dolphin - a distance of 20 miles.  Although there are two 'right hand' running junctions between Twyford and Maidenhead East there's then nothing until Dolphin which comes back to leaving trains on the Up Relief for 20 miles - and during the peak those are 20 very busy miles.

 

So inevitably in terms of paths there will be no alternative to squeezing a quart into a pint pot but then to make that stand a better chance of working stops trains must be taken out and certain stops also have to come out.  if that doesn't happen you'll get exactly the situation seen this morning.  In situations like this there is no alternative - you have to be ruthless in pruning things out of the service if you are to stand half a chance of getting something workable.

[rodent279]

On 11/12/2019 at 11:45, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

Just to make people aware, Sunday should see electric train operation extended from Bristol Parkway to Newport (with the section through the Severn Tunnel remaining in Diesel) as part of the Timetable change.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

No idea whether it was running on electric power or not, but today, on my cycle to work at Aztec West, I saw for the first time an 80x pass through Patchway station with pan raised, heading towards Bristol. Didn't get a close enough view to see whether it was carrying passengers, and since they are pretty quiet anyway, I couldn't tell whether the engines were running. This was at around 0850.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

On 16/12/2019 at 16:59, The Stationmaster said:

The problem isn't so much with Twyford and Maidenhead as they are a reasonable distance apart although still reason to thin things a bit.  The distances between the stations east of Maidenhead are much less so trains don't get any chance at all to build up speed and keep moving if even one an hour happens to be stopping at Taplow and Burnham (especially when you consider both places lie on a number of 'bus routes between Maidenhead and Slough).   slough is inevitably a problem due to heavy passenger numbers causing overtime in calling trains although in the peak the same will happen at Twyford and Maidenhead.

 

A bigger problem is the ludicrously low (90mph) line speed on the Reliefs which inevitably means that trains timed at 125 mph are going to lose time in running even without catching up the one(s) in front.   The other problem - where strategy still strikes me as not being properly though through - is the positioning of running junctions.  The only 'left hand' junctions to get trains off the Up Main between Reading (Kennet Bridge) and Dolphin are at Twyford West and Slough West - if trains can't run on the Main to the latter then there is no alternative to everything running up the Relief from Twyford West to Dolphin - a distance of 20 miles.  Although there are two 'right hand' running junctions between Twyford and Maidenhead East there's then nothing until Dolphin which comes back to leaving trains on the Up Relief for 20 miles - and during the peak those are 20 very busy miles.

 

So inevitably in terms of paths there will be no alternative to squeezing a quart into a pint pot but then to make that stand a better chance of working stops trains must be taken out and certain stops also have to come out.  if that doesn't happen you'll get exactly the situation seen this morning.  In situations like this there is no alternative - you have to be ruthless in pruning things out of the service if you are to stand half a chance of getting something workable.

 

Mike, isn't there a "right hand" junction at Stockley Bridge, between W Drayton and Hayes?

[royaloak]

10 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

No idea whether it was running on electric power or not, but today, on my cycle to work at Aztec West, I saw for the first time an 80x pass through Patchway station with pan raised, heading towards Bristol. Didn't get a close enough view to see whether it was carrying passengers, and since they are pretty quiet anyway, I couldn't tell whether the engines were running. This was at around 0850.

Its  not a route I sign but I think electric operation to Newport started last weekend, except for the Severn Tunnel which is still diesel only.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

49 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

No idea whether it was running on electric power or not, but today, on my cycle to work at Aztec West, I saw for the first time an 80x pass through Patchway station with pan raised, heading towards Bristol. Didn't get a close enough view to see whether it was carrying passengers, and since they are pretty quiet anyway, I couldn't tell whether the engines were running. This was at around 0850.

1L10 0720 Swansea - Padd (would've been on the electric).

[rodent279]

51 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Its  not a route I sign but I think electric operation to Newport started last weekend, except for the Severn Tunnel which is still diesel only.

Where are the changeover points either side of the Seven Tunnel? I'm guessing Pilning-ish on the English side?

[royaloak]

46 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Where are the changeover points either side of the Seven Tunnel? I'm guessing Pilning-ish on the English side?

I dont know, as I stated I dont sign the route.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 

Mike, isn't there a "right hand" junction at Stockley Bridge, between W Drayton and Hayes?

Indeed there is Peter - the contemporary of West Drayton East, then there's another at Southall West Jcn.  So pretty close together at that end not that it solves the situation west of Slough.  

 

Incidentally they were first (I think) spoken of as 'left hand' and 'right hand' junctions when the London Division running junction strategy was reviewed in the late 1980s/early '90s - a very easy way of talking about them.   I've an idea the need for another left hand junction between Twyford West and Slough West was talked about at that time. (although I don't know if there was any proposal to reinstate Maidenhead West which had gone in the early 1960s).  But the strategy was taken over by Railtrackification and various ideas for changes to the then existing situation seemed to have vanished then.

[SouthernMafia]

Good to see some priority regulation for a change at Reading even if it is by a slightly slower route. Platforms 10 and 11 both had services in, with 1H40 non-stop approaching, the Signaller has routed through Platform 9 in the Up direction around 1A23. 1H40 is about 12 late so might just make PPM with a good run to London. Normally it's wait your place in the queue, although I did see the 1532 Basingstoke go out in front of an on time 1529 1C86...

[DY444]

On 17/12/2019 at 22:55, rodent279 said:

Where are the changeover points either side of the Seven Tunnel? I'm guessing Pilning-ish on the English side?

 

Severn Tunnel Junction and Pilning

[St. Simon]

On 17/12/2019 at 22:55, rodent279 said:

Where are the changeover points either side of the Seven Tunnel? I'm guessing Pilning-ish on the English side?

Hi

 

The change-over site at Severn Tunnel Junction is basically either side of the M4 Bridge (Pan down on the tunnel side, pan up on the Newport side), whilst the site at Pilning is either side of Pilning  station (Pan down on the tunnel side, pan up on the Bristol side)

 

There is also a pan down site on the approach to Patchway from Wales for trains via Filton Abbey Wood. But, due to the Severn Tunnel, if there are any Wales to Filton Class 80x’s, they will remain in Diesel from STJ to Bristol.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[DY444]

As discussed earlier it has been decreed that IET shunt moves into the west end turnback(s) at Cardiff will have to be conducted in diesel mode despite the lines involved being electrified.  What puzzles me about this is other locations where IETs can take electrified or non-electrified routes and why Cardiff is different.  At Swindon a down train has the choice of the Golden Valley or the main line; at Bristol Parkway a down train has the choice of Filton or Tunnel.  I guess the answer might be the provision of runoffs at those locations but if a driver at say Swindon forgets to change over and sets off towards Kemble then what are the chances of him remembering before the wires run out?  Just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

[jim.snowdon]

7 hours ago, DY444 said:

As discussed earlier it has been decreed that IET shunt moves into the west end turnback(s) at Cardiff will have to be conducted in diesel mode despite the lines involved being electrified.  What puzzles me about this is other locations where IETs can take electrified or non-electrified routes and why Cardiff is different.  At Swindon a down train has the choice of the Golden Valley or the main line; at Bristol Parkway a down train has the choice of Filton or Tunnel.  I guess the answer might be the provision of runoffs at those locations but if a driver at say Swindon forgets to change over and sets off towards Kemble then what are the chances of him remembering before the wires run out?  Just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

It's even stranger when IETs are required to use the same siding in diesel mode that other electric trains are allowed to use in electric mode. It makes no sense. Either it's an electrified railway or it isn't.

 

Jim

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

All of the explanation as to why Cardiff is different to other locations and why it has been designed the way it has been, is on the previous page.

 

Simon

[DY444]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

All of the explanation as to why Cardiff is different to other locations and why it has been designed the way it has been, is on the previous page.

 

Simon

 

The only explanation (if you can call it that) that I can find is that you and your boss decided Cardiff was different even though as far as I can see it is identical to Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Didcot.  This seems to be borne out by the list of principles for the changeovers you posted and which as far as I can see have been disregarded at Cardiff.   I guess we're never going to know why drivers at Cardiff have been deemed as incapable of being relied on to get it right whilst they have at other places. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by DY444

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

The only explanation (if you can call it that) that I can find is that you and your boss decided Cardiff was different even though as far as I can see it is identical to Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Didcot.  This seems to be borne out by the list of principles for the changeovers you posted and which as far as I can see have been disregarded at Cardiff.   I guess we're never going to know why drivers at Cardiff have been deemed as incapable of being relied on to get it right whilst they have at other places. 

We have the same farce at Newbury where, on the down, we have to swap to diesel as we arrive at the braking zone for the station despite 387s running into Newbury on electric, why we cant run in on electric and then swap when stopped (as we do on the up when swapping from diesel to electric) is beyond me but obviously its safer for a driver to be swapping modes instead of braking for a station stop than doing the change over while stood in a platform. 

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

The only explanation (if you can call it that) that I can find is that you and your boss decided Cardiff was different even though as far as I can see it is identical to Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Didcot.  This seems to be borne out by the list of principles for the changeovers you posted and which as far as I can see have been disregarded at Cardiff.   I guess we're never going to know why drivers at Cardiff have been deemed as incapable of being relied on to get it right whilst they have at other places. 

Hi,

 

All the explanation is there, Cardiff is designed to exactly the same principles as all the other sites, which are based on the location and layout of OLE.

 

The closest end of OLE has to be protected against an IEP with its pan up, that’s what we have designed. 
 

However, clearly the members of RMWeb are all far superior experts than the creators of the system, so I’ll hand my IRSE license in.

 

Simon

[jim.snowdon]

20 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi

 

The change-over site at Severn Tunnel Junction is basically either side of the M4 Bridge (Pan down on the tunnel side, pan up on the Newport side), whilst the site at Pilning is either side of Pilning  station (Pan down on the tunnel side, pan up on the Bristol side)

 

There is also a pan down site on the approach to Patchway from Wales for trains via Filton Abbey Wood. But, due to the Severn Tunnel, if there are any Wales to Filton Class 80x’s, they will remain in Diesel from STJ to Bristol.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

I'd be more interested in knowing why the Severn Tunnel is still off limits for electric operation yet the wiring is, at      the second attempt,, all in place and from what I believe it have been energised.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

Just now, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

All the explanation is there, Cardiff is designed to exactly the same principles as all the other sites, which are based on the location and layout of OLE.

 

The closest end of OLE has to be protected against an IEP with its pan up, that’s what we have designed. 
 

However, clearly the members of RMWeb are all far superior experts than the creators of the system, so I’ll hand my IRSE license in.

 

Simon

It isn't, and shouldn't be a signalling issue. Signalling is not there to protect the OLE - it belongs to the E&P engineers, otherwise we'll end up with the clearance of signals at the exit from electrified sections being interlocked with detection of the train type and whether the pantograph has been lowered.

 

Jim

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

I'd be more interested in knowing why the Severn Tunnel is still off limits for electric operation yet the wiring is, at      the second attempt,, all in place and from what I believe it have been energised.

 

Jim

Hi,

 

I can’t say everything as I don’t know how much is public, but at the moment it is due to the conditions inside the tunnel preventing pro-longed energisation.

 

It looks likely it’ll be resolved in the first half of 2020 possibly. 

 

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

It isn't, and shouldn't be a signalling issue. Signalling is not there to protect the OLE - it belongs to the E&P engineers, otherwise we'll end up with the clearance of signals at the exit from electrified sections being interlocked with detection of the train type and whether the pantograph has been lowered.

 

Jim

You are quite correct it isn’t a signalling issue, it is because the Class 80x system uses Eurobalises, classed as a signalling asset, that we got involved, the installation of signage also meant we get more into it.

 

Simon 

Edited December 26, 2019 by St. Simon

[The Stationmaster]

On 26/12/2019 at 08:44, DY444 said:

As discussed earlier it has been decreed that IET shunt moves into the west end turnback(s) at Cardiff will have to be conducted in diesel mode despite the lines involved being electrified.  What puzzles me about this is other locations where IETs can take electrified or non-electrified routes and why Cardiff is different.  At Swindon a down train has the choice of the Golden Valley or the main line; at Bristol Parkway a down train has the choice of Filton or Tunnel.  I guess the answer might be the provision of runoffs at those locations but if a driver at say Swindon forgets to change over and sets off towards Kemble then what are the chances of him remembering before the wires run out?  Just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I think the real answer lies in a certain song which could be found in the film 'Cabaret'. (For those not familiar with the film the relevant song runs on the theme of '... money, money,   ...').   Or putting it in what would seem to be more relevant to GWML electrification - 'they'd' probably already spent too much by the time they got to Cardiff so 'they' decided to do things on a rather shaky shoe string  and no doubt the first dewirement will probably cost more to sort out than it would have to wire it properly in the first place.

 

And if course nowadays all they have to do is ask the signalling designers to put the odd balise or three into suitable positions to avoid frequent embarrassment to the electrification engineers and the parsimonious budget they were given.  A little bird has whispered in my ear that it could prove very interesting to take a look at the west end of Cardiff Central at what is and isn't wired (mainly a matter of isn't) in respect of certain signalled routes through various crossovers where you can apparently see dewirements sitting there waiting to happen.  I wonder what the electrification risk assessment reads like?

Edited December 27, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[DY444]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think the real answer lies in a certain song which could be found in the film 'Cabaret'. (For those not familiar with the film the relevant song runs on the theme of '... money, money,   ...').   Or putting it in what would seem to be more relevant to GWML electrification - 'they'd' probably already spent too much by the time they got to Cardiff so 'they' decided to do things on a rather shaky shoe string  and no doubt the first dewirement will probably cost more to sort out than it would have to wire it properly in the first place.

 

And if course nowadays all they have to do is ask the signalling designers to put the odd balise or three into suitable positions to avoid frequent embarrassment to the electrification engineers and the parsimonious budget they were given.  A little bird has whispered in my ear that it could prove very interesting to take a look at the west end of Cardiff Central at what is and isn't wired (mainly a matter of isn't) in respect of certain signalled routes through various crossovers where you can apparently see dewirements sitting there waiting to happen.  I wonder what the electrification risk assessment reads like?

 

The whole thing is ridiculous.  Many people think the eastern end of the route has been hugely over engineered and now for the want of a few structures and wire runs the west end of Cardiff has this farce.  Talk about one extreme to the other.