Simond Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Success, and with only moderate bad temper!!! The photo mount that I had used did not seem particularly keen on the melamine facing on the chipboard, and it peeled off quite easily. This allowed me to turn the whole thing upside down and peel the template off the timbers. As expected, the timbers with only slide chairs came off the rails. I had prepared a new template, which was printed on ordinary paper, and then assembled on a cartridge paper backing. The whole assembly was realigned on the new template, stuck down with aliphatic glue (I now think pva might be a better choice for this kind of remedial work - aliphatic would be better for new build, as it "grabs" very quickly) and the slide chairs stuck to the stock rails with cyano. Left it to set under the culinary weights, and then trimmed away the excess template and backing. Yee-har! Simon 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 Yee-har indeed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 Been there done that, even if you look down the side face of the rail it is still hard to tell the difference, well it is to me until I put my glasses on. Hi Martyn, Simon, A tip for identifying which way up is the rail top is to press the end of the rail into a bit of blu-tack on the bench. For some reason it is easier to see the rail section looking at the impression left in the blu-tack than to look at the rail end itself. Or at least it is for me. For those reading this who don't know, the top of bullhead rail is the thicker edge. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the chairs won't fit if you try it upside down. The reason on the prototype is to allow for wear of the rail head: regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi Simon, Sorry for the late reply, but it was back to normality and work today. Regarding the template situation I also print my templates on a sturdier print paper and like the others once finished I cut close around the turnout and it all eventually gets buried under the ballast. With care you should be able to prise off the ( loose sleepers ) I guess the ones you are on about are the ones with the slide chairs on ? I notice you are even closer to the sea than I am, it's about a 5 minute walk from where I live, but there are no cliffs in sight just sandy beaches . Regards, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks all. I'll certainly plan better for the next ones. Like the blu-tack trick, I'll file that one away for future reference! Back to the grindstone tomorrow Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Dunno if any use to you, but I stuck my sleepers to the drawing using single sided sellotape, folded in half lengthwise, sticky side out. Once you've roughly placed a couple of sleepers, it will stay folded. When finished, the tape was cut using an extended 'snap off blade' knife, slid under the sleepers, cutting the through crease in said tape, leaving the sleepers stuck to the tape only (sticky side up. The slide chaired sleepers can be held to the rails before lifting, with iso-c glue, or temporarily, until fitted in position, by bluetac or more tape, although I never bothered with that. I will find it easy enough to space them correctly, if and when when I get around to laying the points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Simon A very impressive piece of trackwork, Ply sleepers certainly look the part when stained and even from some distance (especially in 7mm) look so much better than both copperclad and RTR offerings. Also from a distance hand built track (if well built) flows which ready to lay does not The system I use to build turnouts and crossings is to glue a plan to a building board, carpet spray glue is so much stronger than spray mount. I then use masking tape to hold a piece of tracing paper over the plan. Using a strip of double sided tape (I cut pieces about 2" long and 3 mm wide) outside the stock rails the length of the turnout, except where the tiebars go. This holds down the sleepers I find in both 4 & 7 mm scales normal chairs tend not to move, however a dab of Butanone will hold the chair to the rail. Slide chairs are a bit different, I superglue the chair to the rail, when set I use solvent to set the chair to the sleeper. If you use the tracing paper method, firstly the turnout comes off the building board very easily, then if thin strips of DS tape have been used, just turn over and carefully peal off. A liberal splash of white spirit will weaken the glue on the tape. I would be very careful what glue you use to hold the plan to the base board and sleepers to the plan. I have had a paper template come away from cork underlay after some time, admittedly not ballasted. Also double sided tape does degrade over time. I am very impressed with carpet spray glue, far better value and certainly really sticks my carpet firmly to the floor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2015 Beware of using double sided tape to fix track. The glue does not set so if the rails are bent as in attaching flexitrax thepressure of the rails will tend to force dog legs at the joints. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Club-7 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 ... Do you have any insight into stopping the less-well-attached timbers from sliding along the rails, and/or falling off?... You could always do what the prototype does and "bolt" the rail to the chair. Available from here for your next turnout. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 S-Club, Thanks for that. Unfortunately the link, doesn't! Are these 3D printed? The model looks excellent. I guess the bolt needs to be made too? And the rail needs to be drilled 8 or so times. I don't know if I have unrealistic aspirations but certainly I'm astonished & horrified in roughly equal measure by the prices of Shapeways items - I have seen some other 3DP stuff that is more reasonable, but it understand there is an issue with UV stability of some resins as well. I haven't investigated this in any detail, but as I'm taking a professional 3D CAD course next month, I might take a deeper interest. I recall there was also an option (Bernard Weller iirc) to have fold-up etched brass chairs, and I believe that C&L also do cast brass slide chairs, both of which can be soldered to the rail and superglued to the timber. I don't know if C&L do the etched chairs as part of their Exactoscale range. The solution proposed by Martin, Martyn, and others (ie print the plan on thickish paper and leave it attached to the timbers) seems to work well, with a drop of cyano to aid matters. It'll certainly be rigid when the ballast is glued down. Whilst it's obvious close up, indeed there's no comparison, from 4 feet away, you can't tell the difference between C&L and soldered copperclad, provided they're both painted & weathered. Well, I can't tell, anyway. It reminds me of a comment attributed to CJF, he noted that the main visible difference between a better 0F and an S7 layout was the signs all over the latter proclaiming its provenance. (Hard hat on, heading for the door!) Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2015 Will we be seeing Block chairs next? It looks good but to be honest supler glue and a small square of plasticard to represent the bolthead will do for me. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 I trust now you've made a replacement that the originals will turn up. Yes, they did. Yesterday. For reasons beyond my ken, they were in a box of very small drills. Anybody need a set of King fire hole door levers, please let me know... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Bit of progress - the milk train now has a PBV - the Metal Models K3 & Siphon are now painted & transferred and waiting only for the weather to get a bit nicer so the airbrush and weathering can commence. The other vehicles are a POWsides tanker, a Slaters tanker and Siphon, and a further 6w siphon from Tower models. At the head is my Lionheart 64xx pannier. I apologise for the weird orientations - have tried to fix it, but not winning... Best Simon 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2015 Bit of progress - the milk train now has a PBV - the Metal Models K3 & Siphon are now painted & transferred and waiting only for the weather to get a bit nicer so the airbrush and weathering can commence. The other vehicles are a POWsides tanker, a Slaters tanker and Siphon, and a further 6w siphon from Tower models. At the head is my Lionheart 64xx pannier. image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg I apologise for the weird orientations - have tried to fix it, but not winning... Best Simon Taken with an iPad by any chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2015 There's something weird about iPads and photo orientation. Any better? 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2015 The phone did an auto-crop when editing, I thought it looked quite nice: A great bit of modelling Simon. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Chris Thanks for the kind comments and the inversion & edit of the images!! It's strange - the pix were taken on an iphone 6, and posted from my ipad, on which they appear correctly on the photo app, but were, as we saw, rather higgldy-piggldy on the web. I've done this lots before, never had the problem. Couple more photos (right way up this time) on the GWR Rolling stock forum - K3 PBV. Cheers Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 just looking at that end on view - the cold glass eye never lies... I have no idea why the PBV and the Siphon appear to be at angles to one another - they're both decent, upright individuals - I must check the roof on the Siphon is on straight. The lack of chairs on the turnout road is very noticable - this was an earlier attempt at home-grown track, it's a 32mm gauge tandem built on copperclad (of legendary strength ) and has been giving good service on the Greater Windowledge since about 2004. Powered by a pair of tortoises. The shallow ballast (or, perhaps, thick sleepers - balsa to build the copperclad up to Peco thickness) is not realistic. I quite like the cobbles - they are embossed card, painted with acrylics, and seem to have stood the test of time. The gaps between them, however, are not attractive, particularly in the upper photos. If the GWR were remaining, I would have to start adding weeds & stuff. As it is, the PD locoshed designs have been fettled and fiddled with ad nauseam, and the baseboard drawings are done... best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Hello Simon, For some reason I've missed your layout topic before now and only found it after reading your K3 topic. It has been a very enjoyable read this morning and I'll try to keep up in future. A couple of points, one from a year ago and one current. Back on p2 you were discussing the reason for cylinder centres being 21/2" above wheel centres on Churchward's standard two-cylinder classes and doubted Russell's comment about structure clearance. Did you not find the explanation in Holcroft's Outline of GW Locomotive Practice? At the top of p84 (1971 ed) is the origin of Russell's explanation. Referring to no 97 (later 2800), the first prototype of the standard two cylinder classes, he mentions the clearance issue: "...there was insufficient clearance in the load gauge to enable the cylinders to clear it with worn tyres and axlebox crowns...Churchward could not tolerate the sight of inclined cylinders on the outside of an engine..." The offending part of the gauge appears to be the part that gave clearance for point rodding etc*. Hence the same pattern was adopted for all of the standard two-cylinder classes, irrespective of wheel size because it allowed the same castings and other components to be used. Back to the present, the K3 does look really good, though I'm surprised by how well it and the Siphon F have retained their ancient liveries (clearly, rule 1 applies), however. I really think you should have a word with your guard as he seems to have both anticipated and been confused by the upcoming 1934 and 1936 rule changes about side and tail lamps. Actually, I'm slightly confused as to what lamps a milk train would carry in the early thirties, although it wouldn't be a post-1936 white bodied lamp mounted on a side lamp iron :scratchhead:Maybe I'll ask Mike... Nick edit * Wrong, but you can see the problem in the drawing of the 42XX (cylinders are the same height) fig 234 on p93 where the clearance envelope is shown. Any lower and the 8'11" wide cylinders would hit the 8'8" limit. Edited February 9, 2015 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Nick, Thanks for your post and welcome to the thread! I don't have a copy of "Locomotive Practice", and I couldn't find references to the clearance issue when I looked in the two volume "Locomotive Adventure" which I do have. I can clearly see the commonisation of cylinder castings driving it on the larger wheeled locos, if it is necessary on the smaller wheeled ones, which from your reference it is - so thanks for sorting that one out. JHR 1 : SBD 0. As an aside, I wonder what part of the structure gauge is 4'4" from track centre and higher than it? I'd expect point rodding to be at approximately rail bottom edge, as some rodding goes under the track and the rest has to cross the bits that go under, so more-or-less in line with the rail. Perhaps the stools stand higher? Regarding the K3, thank you for your kind compliment. In defence of the livery, I suspect that it's rather more 1903 than 1922 - perhaps I should have put the running numbers lower down, but as it will be rather grubbier by the time I've finished weathering it, it will, I hope, look like it has been a long while since it saw the paint shop, as befits an old vehicle relegated to non-passenger working. Thanks to the invaluable contribution by Dave (kada33), I have at least got the right running number on it! Turning to the siphon F, Russel's book (pg 42) refers to "an old photo in the MRN of November 31" which I interpreted liberally... It's a shame that most of the photos in these books are not dated. Perhaps you can advise - should it have large "GW" on the ends to complete this livery? And finally, I only have rule books from 1904 (Ian Allen reprint) and 1950 (RCH) so I plead ignorance, tempered by the excuse that it isn't on a running line, so it needs only a taillight, side lights being needed on running lines per rule 127a. Of course, obtaining a lamp from 5 years in the future may be more difficult to justify... Lamps are, indeed, already were, on the shopping list. Thanks again Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I've just managed to find an official diagram for the load and structure gauge dated 1933 in GWRJ No 75. This does indeed show a 8'8" width from 6" to 1'10" above rail height. Above this it widens to 9'. It would be the top corner of the 8'8" section that would cause problems for the cylinders on a worn 28XX. Rodding stools are a little higher than rail height, but that's not the full story and I'm not sure exactly what the clearance is for. As to the Siphon F, I've seen models with 25" GW on the ends but in the Slinn & Clarke GW Siphons book they show a Siphon C as built and comment that it is "...the only example of end lettering on milk vans." They also suggest the letters on the louvres of the Siphon F were moved lower down the sides (as on the C) at first repainting, though they suggest this may not have happened until after the 16" letters were introduced around 1923. Russell is probably referring to the same photo that appears in the Siphons book, GWW and elsewhere. It was almost certainly taken as built or very soon after. On the lamps issue, yes, my 1905 rule book has the same rule 127(a). By 1933, 127(ii) only mentions the "prescribed lamps" and 129(iv)(a) says that the guard must "...satisfy himself...that...the train is provided with the necessary lamps." The rules on good brake side lamps are elsewhere. Up to 1934, all trains on running lines required a tail lamp plus two side lamps, thereafter, passenger trains no longer used side lamps. From the end of 1936 both head and tail lamps had white bodies, although the full change took many years. Previously, both head and tail lamps had red bodies. Although I haven't found a clear statement about this, photos give the impression that pre-1934 passenger side lamps also had red bodies, though it is even less clear when this began. Goods train side lamps always had black bodied side lamps. Now, a milk train is not a goods train. It is composed of NPCCS (brown vehicles) and the tanks are passenger rated. Again, no direct evidence, but it seems reasonable to assume that they would have used passenger lamps, so red-bodied tail and side lamps to 1934, a single red-bodied tail lamp to the end of 1036, then red, or later white, tail lamp thereafter. So your K3 in a siding should have a single red-bodied lamp over the left hand buffer (viewed from behind) plus two red-bodied side lamps until it arrives or before it departs. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Another shelf queen has finally made it to completion - a bit of weathering will be needed Inspiration from page 371 of ABT. I really must get on with the King... And the points And the new baseboard... Best Simon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 rails across the roof.... b*%%£r! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Mink... With the roof joins, and a bit of weathering Best Simon 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 The second track formation for PD Loco has been assembled. I had originally planned to put a catch point in this piece of track, but decided it is simply too close. It would have required an unprototypical operation from the signal box that will eventually control the junction that the catch protects, every time a loco goes from the turntable or coal road to the shed, or vice versa. Eliminating it obviously made the track assembly a bit simpler. And here on the GWR, signs of its impending demise. Stacks of sleepers, a load of timbers... Best Simon 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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